[Suggestion] Skillgain Backlog

FikuleFikule United Kingdom
Skill Gain is slow, it should be in a way. But the problem is it is much slower if you are playing the game, as opposed to grinding it out.

For instance, the guy farming a camp for hours on end is going to gain more than the guy exploring the world and killing things in multiple areas. One solution to this would be a skill backlog.

Skill Backlog
This would determine the amount of points of a skill you can gain at an increased rate. The more points in the backlog, the higher the chance to gain. The backlog increases over time, and is reduced when you gain a point in the skill. The amount of skill you can store in the backlog is calculated on a curve, like this:

((-2.5f / (Skill / 100)) + ((Skill Remaining) * 0.3f)) + 2

For example, at 40% skill, it would be:
((-2.5f / (0.4)) + ((60) * 0.3f)) + 2 = 13.75 Backlog

Here's come other skills %s:
1 : -218.3
4 : -31.7
7 : -5.814285
10 : 4.000002
13 : 8.86923
16 : 11.575
19 : 13.14211
22 : 14.03637
25 : 14.5
28 : 14.67143
31 : 14.63548
34 : 14.44706
37 : 14.14324
40 : 13.75
43 : 13.28605
46 : 12.76522
49 : 12.19796
52 : 11.59231
55 : 10.95455
58 : 10.28966
61 : 9.601641
64 : 8.89375
67 : 8.168657
70 : 7.428572
73 : 6.675343
76 : 5.910526
79 : 5.135443
82 : 4.35122
85 : 3.558824
88 : 2.759091
91 : 1.952747
94 : 1.140426
97 : 0.3226805
100 : -0.5

The early skill must be bought or trained up normally, as they don't get a backlog (as seen above). This means skill you aren't already somewhat proficient in aren't generating a backlog of gains.

The highest point for backlog is 30%, after that it slowly declines. Backlog would not guarantee gains, but it would significantly increase your gain chance while you have it. This means that while someone purely grinding can gain at the same rate they do now, someone just playing the game can gain with minimal disadvantage.

Lets say it takes 24 hours for the backlog to completely fill. This means every day people will know they have at least some amount of increased gains for their skill. Those who are constantly grinding will still get the increased gains, but only minimally as they won't have much backlog before using them up (so the chance that it impacts their gains is minimal).

This encourages people to go out and simply enjoy the game and gain naturally rather than finding the best grinding method and going afk. The best grind method will still gain faster, but those playing naturally won't be at a big disadvantage and feel like actually playing the game is inefficient.
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Comments

  • brulokbrulok canada
    Why not just say "copy World of Warcraft" rested bonus?
  • FikuleFikule United Kingdom
    Or UOs power hour.

    Though it felt more appropriate to tailor it specifically to this game, especially as Aria seems to favour grinding over playing far more heavily right now.

    I realise in that sense it's similar to UO, but that part of the game meant that when you created a character you essentially went afk for a week skilling them up, which probably won't attract many players these days. If there were boats I doubt people would be keen on 8x8ing the stealth skill for 3 days.
  • SachaSacha [Reino de Aldor]
    We already proposed a gain limit per day (or it could be for hour) so you don't grind the same skill over and over.
    Or just make the gain chance depend on when you last gained (now - time_of_last_gain_for_this_skill), so it will be difficult to gain the same skill repeatedly.
  • JubbinJubbin Washington State
    brulok said:

    Why not just say "copy World of Warcraft" rested bonus?

    because it didn't originate in WoW :P
    Dark age of camelot had that before wow.
    But yeah, I can see that being fun

    UO used to have "Power Hour"
    at midnight, you would get x2 gains.
  • ValhaloValhalo Australia
    Sacha said:

    We already proposed a gain limit per day (or it could be for hour) so you don't grind the same skill over and over.
    Or just make the gain chance depend on when you last gained (now - time_of_last_gain_for_this_skill), so it will be difficult to gain the same skill repeatedly.

    So you're saying that you should only be able to gain a certain amount of experience in a skill per day (or hour). Sorry, but if I understand correctly that is a horrible idea, it adds a completely unnecessary layer of restriction, if I am playing the game as a tailor and the game suddenly tells me 'Sorry you have gained enough tailoring experience for today' I would just stop playing, that's almost as bad as the energy mechanic in mobile games.
  • SachaSacha [Reino de Aldor]
    Ok, so you dont like it.
    But the limit could be so playing the game is hardly reachable, and only affects those macroing or heavy grinding.
  • ValhaloValhalo Australia
    Sacha said:

    Ok, so you dont like it.
    But the limit could be so playing the game is hardly reachable, and only affects those macroing or heavy grinding.

    Why should I not be allowed to heavy grind? If I want to do so I should have that choice, it's not about bot control either, bot control methods should not affect legit players in any way.
  • SachaSacha [Reino de Aldor]
    You are allowed to do so, but simply you won't gain faster that just playing the game.
    It's just a measure, like slower gains when you are close to GM, or limiting dummy training up to 30.
  • ValhaloValhalo Australia
    Sacha said:

    You are allowed to do so, but simply you won't gain faster that just playing the game.
    It's just a measure, like slower gains when you are close to GM, or limiting dummy training up to 30.

    It's not like that at all, slowing down skill gains as you reach a higher level and limiting dummies to 30 are perfectly reasonable and sensible mechanics, limiting skill gain per hour/day is absolutely ridiculous.
  • Sacha said:

    You are allowed to do so, but simply you won't gain faster that just playing the game.
    It's just a measure, like slower gains when you are close to GM, or limiting dummy training up to 30.

    This is the same stupid system that Shroud of the Avatar has that caps your xp gains in an hour if your higher level and hit that cap, so if I hit it 20 mins I get nothing for the next 40 thus wasting my time. Excessive grind already doesn't value a player's time and this just further exacerbates that underlying issue. If I have the time to play and want to focus on one skill I should be able to without restrictions especially when the game has hard caps on stats and skill points.
  • SachaSacha [Reino de Aldor]
    Valhalo said:

    It's not like that at all, slowing down skill gains as you reach a higher level and limiting dummies to 30 are perfectly reasonable and sensible mechanics, limiting skill gain per hour/day is absolutely ridiculous.

    Yes, this is the kind of reasoned arguments I was hoping for.
  • Sacha said:

    Valhalo said:

    It's not like that at all, slowing down skill gains as you reach a higher level and limiting dummies to 30 are perfectly reasonable and sensible mechanics, limiting skill gain per hour/day is absolutely ridiculous.

    Yes, this is the kind of reasoned arguments I was hoping for.
    Agreed!

    I don't like the idea of limiting skill gains per hour/day for any reason, on any game. These are games that I uninstall.
  • TreizeTreize philippines-chessapeake
    Introduce power hours. And possibly skill gain events.
  • ArazielAraziel United States
    If you want to reward those that go out and explore you can do it in a much more positive way than creating under the hood mechanical limitations for those that grind.

    Such as randomly spawning treasure caches with skill notes that increase player skill.
  • DominusDominus I always start my day with a Special K, for breakfast.
    edited July 29
    I'm FOR daily caps not because it's the best option, but because it cuts down heavily on development and testing time.

    One of the reasons we're not getting a decent sandbox experience because of the amount of unexpected levelling exploits previously. And as we've seen repeatedly in the past, a small team doesn't have the time keep up with player exploits in a sandbox environment. Time is the most precious resource they have, and I feel it's been poorly allocated so far.

    Currently the team decide on roughly how long they want a character to hit max level, and have to spend a huge amount of time making that happen, predicting potential exploits, then testing and fixing new levelling exploits players discover.

    Even then, ideal outcome is almost identical to daily caps!

    For me the greater development freedom and faster implementation of new ideas is worth the tradeoff. The alternative is waiting another year or so for them to test and add new stuff.

    ---
    For people claiming they will leave, they won't, I've seen the same thing play out on freeshards run by friends, and a few weeks after implementation, no one leaves or complains anymore.

    Also the devs can then add items & drops that slightly increase the daily level caps so grinders have reasons to keep grinding. It's just an order of magnitude easier to manage.

  • Cap gains will favor macro and bots. Just saying.
  • DominusDominus I always start my day with a Special K, for breakfast.
    edited July 29
    @Koz how?


  • i been playing my mage for two weeks and i can tell you mage gains are broken as fuck. once i hit 90 magic affinity i like totally stopped gaining i get .1 every 3 hours of actually grinding and doing what i am suppose to. mage gains vrs warriors is a sad joke
  • Koz said:

    Cap gains will favor macro and bots. Just saying.

    you are exactly right
  • DominusDominus I always start my day with a Special K, for breakfast.

    Koz said:

    Cap gains will favor macro and bots. Just saying.

    you are exactly right
    Hahaha, I bet you can't explain how though...
  • Dominus said:

    @Koz how?


    Unless the cap is cumulative which makes it irrelevant, I can see people leaving the game open just so they can spend their cap while they are away. From here you can see why bots and macros will dominate.
  • The problem with daily capped gains is not only automated actions. It also creates exactly what your concerns are, in a different way. People starting 2 months from launch with capped gains will experience the same problem, lets say, first week of launch without cap. There is no reason for a cap.
  • DominusDominus I always start my day with a Special K, for breakfast.
    edited July 29
    @Koz What absolute nonsense. Without daily caps the EXACT same bot/macro could be left running 24/7 with far greater benefits.

    On the freeshards I mentioned previously, caps were specifically introduced as a means of limiting easyuo levelling bots & scripts (quite successfully too.)

    What actually happened was players started making more experimental characters, because caps were per character, and logged in more frequently.
  • DominusDominus I always start my day with a Special K, for breakfast.
    edited July 29
    @Koz they would experience that regardless of caps.
    On my uncapped shard, we unfortunately allowed players to vote on the topic, they voted uncapped. But if i could do it again, I'd cap em. it's less work as a dev, and the end result is pretty much the same.

    And like i said, it's not an ideal option, but if you're fine waiting another year to add new content. We can wait i guess.
  • SachaSacha [Reino de Aldor]
    Araziel said:

    If you want to reward those that go out and explore you can do it in a much more positive way than creating under the hood mechanical limitations for those that grind.

    Such as randomly spawning treasure caches with skill notes that increase player skill.

    +1
  • edited July 30
    @Dominus

    > I'm FOR daily caps not because it's the best option, but because it cuts down heavily on development and testing time.

    I don't mean to sound disrespectful here, but if I wanted to play a game that had daily limits, I'd go play a Facebook app.


    > For people claiming they will leave, they won't, I've seen the same thing play out on freeshards run by friends, and a few weeks after implementation, no one leaves or complains anymore.

    An opinion based on emulators of an old game? I don't think one can really compare the players on an emulator of a very out-dated game with a vast majority of today's average gamer (especially the Steam and console gamers). Maybe I'm missing something here, but I think we would lose far more players than we would gain if we took that approach. It's already a niche game, so I don't think it's wisdom to try to appeal to only niche crowd.

    So, instead of limiting players XP gain to a very brief window of time during the day, why not slow down the XP (but with better balance/tweaks than the current state, obviously), and give us buffs that last an hour or two for logging in consecutive days, and/or for participating in a daily event? Or something we get in our mailbox for showing up. Or as someone else mentioned previously?

    There's a lot of things you can do to slow things down, but give people a reason to log in, not a reason to log out. Please. :)
  • Dominus said:

    @Koz What absolute nonsense. Without daily caps the EXACT same bot/macro could be left running 24/7 with far greater benefits.

    On the freeshards I mentioned previously, caps were specifically introduced as a means of limiting easyuo levelling bots & scripts (quite successfully too.)

    What actually happened was players started making more experimental characters, because caps were per character, and logged in more frequently.

    Bot and macro will exist regardless, I agree. The cap system though would encourage the usage.
    You know, I may not want to play my blacksmith that day, but I will have to just because I will be 1 day delayed if I don`t so let me run this bot here while I`m away. I`m sure someone is just like me and does not like to feel left behind.
    I understand the overall positive sides of the cap system, but as a player I definitely dislike being restricted. If I want to powerlevel on a saturday, I should be allowed to.
  • DominusDominus I always start my day with a Special K, for breakfast.
    edited July 30
    Veronica said:

    @Dominus

    > I'm FOR daily caps not because it's the best option, but because it cuts down heavily on development and testing time.

    I don't mean to sound disrespectful here, but if I wanted to play a game that had daily limits, I'd go play a Facebook app.

    I don't find that disrespectful in the least, on the contrary I appreciate the directness.. but I'll bet you £50 that if they ever announce switching to daily caps you won't leave immediately because of that specifically. Actually, I'll raise it to £100, because I've seen almost this exact scenario play out before. (And all things considered, in your case, I'd find it equally amusing having to pay out, as I would to collect)
    Veronica said:


    So, instead of limiting players XP gain to a very brief window of time during the day, why not slow down the XP (but with better balance/tweaks than the current state, obviously), and give us buffs that last an hour or two for logging in consecutive days, and/or for participating in a daily event? Or something we get in our mailbox for showing up. Or as someone else mentioned previously?

    There's a lot of things you can do to slow things down, but give people a reason to log in, not a reason to log out. Please. :)

    Players are more likely to login for daily caps, it's just basic psychology if you think about it hard enough. Many exploitative mobile games/apps add timers precisely because of this addictive phenomenon.

    But as for your suggestions... regardless of whatever complicated method you choose you to get there, the end goal is roughly the same.

    "We want players to take approximately X weeks to max out a character class."

    You can shuffle numbers around all you like, add or take away whatever feature you'd like to get there... it still converges on that same end goal.

    We do know for sure, under the current system it obviously takes far too much dev time to get anything done, and they are running out of time rapidly, missing too many deadlines.

    My main contention is the game has been in development for about 4 years and we have what? three unfinished, unbalanced combat classes, an unfinished, uninspiring world that definitely not the sandbox we were promised. And no clear end in sight.

    I'm not even suggesting daily caps are the only way forward, I'm just making a case for why I think it would be an advantage, for reasons that may not have been considered previously.

    Because if they don't start managing dev time better, and actually hit deadlines we're all screwed, if the main game is fails with the currently marketing strategy, the community servers fail alongside it.

    They need to start looking at timesinks and how to reduce them. Some things seem like obvious timesinks. They probably already did this time/benefit analysis and found better options, who knows? we're certainly not seeing the fruits of it yet.

    The things you, and others are suggesting sound fantastic, I'd really like that too. But it all requires building and testing times that are completely unrealistic at this late stage.

    Many companies fail because they underestimate how long "balance and tweaking" actually takes. And from my experience it's one of those problems that you can't just throw fresh manpower to solve, even though it often seems like the instinctive thing to do.

    And you might think, well that's all just your opinion... but I'm usually willing to bet on my intuition.
  • Daily caps are just as bad as hourly caps which are just as bad as excessive needless grind and all share one thing in common; they don't respect the player's time. Overthinking solutions to macroers and botting when having GMs in different timezones who can actively port to people who get reported and put a human test to people reported is all it really takes. Punishing people who actually put in heavy game time either daily or those who are limited to just say weekends when they do so just incentives me to either play just until I hit that daily/hourly cap and log off until it resets or find a similar game in this vein or community server with a similar same ruleset without caps.
  • @Dominus
    Thanks for your thoughtful response. I appreciate hearing the reasoning behind your thoughts. I find it an even more interesting topic to think about. And though I still have some doubts and concerns, I am a little more open minded to the idea. Good post :)
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