Safe Zones

I recently purchased the game and have been playing around for a few days seeing how the different mechanics work, at first when I saw the word 'Protected' underneath my compass I assumed that maybe guards patrolled those area and would punish criminal acts, however upon attempting to attack players I noticed that you just get instakilled. This in itself was frustrating but if its just inside towns it something I can live with, however these safe zones seemed to stretch far beyond the walls of their respective towns. Having these massive safe zones really seemed to take away from the 'hardcore' aspect I thought the game had, so my question is, is this really what the devs have settled on? Are we going to be stuck with these massive safe zones?
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Comments

  • beater07beater07 America
    Unfortunately yes. The game needs to cater to the less hardcore crowd or they won't make enough money.

    It is my hope that they don't put any high end resources in those areas though or I'll be setting up some bots to compete with the foreign gold Farmers.
  • You can live in unprotected zones.

    Theres a fair amount of both protected and unprotected zone.

    To be honest the community can't be trusted with fully unprotected world because nothing will be civil leading to no one wanting to play but a handful of pkers.

    Just go to unprotected zones which there is quite a bit of.
    The game is fair and reasonable in this regard, and still hardcore.

    But wanting to force everyone to have to play in a pk world is unrealistic for the longevity of this game.
  • ValhaloValhalo Australia
    If that's the way its going to be that's fine, it is a shame but as long as there are absolutely no valuable resources in these zones it's something I can live with. The instant death however is pretty ridiculous, is it that far fetched to have perhaps strong guard NPCs that patrol these areas and to give players an option to call the guards on someone who has committed a criminal act if the guards do not see it directly.
  • ValhaloValhalo Australia
    edited July 13
    Another thing I have just noticed that is particularly odd is the fact that stealing someones loot (From a creature they kill) insta-kills you as well, but the problem with this is that it works for who got the final kill, these events just took place:

    I was in the graveyard and started talking to someone, whilst we were talking he started struggling with the NPCs and was about to die, so I killed the skeleton attacking him, he then attempted to loot the skeleton but I had gotten the last hit, so he was immediately smited by 'the gods'.

    This system does not prevent greifing, it promotes it, I can just go around stealing peoples kills and getting them to die, as well as taking their loot. I suggest that either you reverse it, making it so that whoever hits the NPC first gets the loot, OR remove it entirely, OR reverse it, but don't insta-kill, instead flag the person who stole allowing the original person to kill him without penalty. I lean more towards the idea of removing it entirely, loot stealing is not a massive issue.

    *Edit* Or allow karma protection to stop you from stealing, because right now it does not.
  • SachaSacha [Reino de Aldor]
    The instant death had to be added after some people were abusing the system. If you leave a slight chance of someone ruining a newbie's experience, gang griefing or whatever, it will surely happen.

  • ValhaloValhalo Australia
    Sacha said:

    The instant death had to be added after some people were abusing the system. If you leave a slight chance of someone ruining a newbie's experience, gang griefing or whatever, it will surely happen.

    I'm sorry but if someones experience is ruined by being killed by someone with higher skills than them or a group of people they are not looking for a PvP game. It's perfectly feasible to correctly pull of a NPC guard based safe zone with rules along the line of:

    -If you have committed a criminal act in the last 5 minutes you will be flagged and guards will kill on sight.
    -If your karma is too low, guards will kill on sight.
    -Players can call the guards on other players who are flagged in a guardzone but not in range of a guard, which will cause the nearest guard to rush over and kill that player.
    -Guards are extremely strong
    -Guards have a high re-spawn rate
    -Starter cities have a lot of guards

    What would this change?

    -You have at least a slight chance of getting away if you have done something wrong
    -Being insta-killed is just silly = More realistic
    -Safe-zones will not stretch miles outside of cities
    -More PvP hot-spots
    -More PvP opportunities for newer players, I myself would like to participate in PvP so I started looking for fights in the most logical place, around cities but to my disappointment I could not find a single person outside of the safe zones.

    Issues?
    -Ganking new players- Something all PvP games have to deal with is the fact that some more experienced players prey on noobs. *However, preying on new players would not be beneficial, firstly you would no-longer be able to enter towns, since your karma will be too low, which is an inconvenience. Secondly, you have nothing to gain, an experienced player will not want the loot of a new player. But nonetheless there will still be people that do it, but there will also be people seeking out these criminal players so that they can also kill, but without punishment and that will create conflict and conflict= fun and purpose.

    -Choke points- *This is something that will happen and I am not entirely sure on a way to balance it but choke points will be formed along popular routes, but it is not a bad thing in all regards seeing as it does create conflict and PvP hotspots.
  • SachaSacha [Reino de Aldor]
    Valhalo said:

    I'm sorry but if someones experience is ruined by being killed by someone with higher skills than them or a group of people they are not looking for a PvP game.

    I might not explained well. I don't talk about being killed once by someone with higher skill. I talk about entering the game first time, and getting killed repeteadly for several minutes until you quit (probably to never come back).
    There are ways to do this, which I won't go into detail.
    What you say about inconveniences when preying noobs only apply to serious players. You can gank noobs with a nude alt which you don't care if it goes red or gains nothing, and a couple of friends.

  • @Valhalo You are using the term PvP but that is too broad of a definition. You should be using the term griefing. And yes, it is possible to grief new players by jumping in and stealing their kills. It is also possible to use the Karma system to prevent the accidental looting you are describing (or at least it was, maybe its broken now).

    It's no different then Eve's protected and unprotected areas. Yes, it is possible to harass players in protected areas, but it takes more effort. You could remove all the protections, but that would only drive people away, and LoA would become yet another empty game with the occasional fight and shit talking.

    What LoA is attempting to build is a game with graduated risks, so that players can play at the level of risk they have fun at. There will always be players who scream about those levels being care-bearish, but at the end of the day you don't want players to stop playing a game because they are no longer having fun.
  • KadeKade Citadel Team Administrator
    Sounds like your Karma Protection is disabled, this should only be disabled if you plan to do things you'll get in trouble for.

    Also, the loot privilege is decided by the player or collective group that did the most damage to the NPC.
  • ValhaloValhalo Australia
    Sacha said:

    Valhalo said:

    I'm sorry but if someones experience is ruined by being killed by someone with higher skills than them or a group of people they are not looking for a PvP game.

    I might not explained well. I don't talk about being killed once by someone with higher skill. I talk about entering the game first time, and getting killed repeteadly for several minutes until you quit (probably to never come back).
    There are ways to do this, which I won't go into detail.
    What you say about inconveniences when preying noobs only apply to serious players. You can gank noobs with a nude alt which you don't care if it goes red or gains nothing, and a couple of friends.

    Even a noob is able to defend himself against another character with no skills or gear, and its not like a noob will spawn into the game just to be killed repeatedly without being able to do anything, the starting city will be guarded, the sewers can be guarded and if we take the City of Valus as an example, the little graveyard could also be guarded, but other than that the rest of the wilderness around it does not need to be guarded.



    It's no different then Eve's protected and unprotected areas. Yes, it is possible to harass players in protected areas, but it takes more effort. You could remove all the protections, but that would only drive people away, and LoA would become yet another empty game with the occasional fight and shit talking.

    This is the only real argument you made and correct me if i'm wrong but EvE uses NPC guards does it not? And that is exactly what I want to have, I don't want to remove all the protected zones, I want to limit the protected zones to areas that actually make sense to be protect, not the wilderness and I want to use NPC guards not that ridiculous instant death. I feel like this thread has gotten to confusing so I moved my ideas here: https://www.legendsofaria.com/forums/discussion/6577/give-us-npc-guards?new=1
    Kade said:

    Sounds like your Karma Protection is disabled, this should only be disabled if you plan to do things you'll get in trouble for.

    Also, the loot privilege is decided by the player or collective group that did the most damage to the NPC.

    Could be, I was just going off the what I was told happened by who it happened to and my interpretation of the events, however it would still make more sense if whoever hit it first got the loot.
  • edited July 14
    People don't like to hear this, but I will post it anyway:the Wild West rules of Ultima Online were responsible for Trammel. The game had 100,000 subscribers at its peak. More than half of new subscribers would quit the game because of the constant ganking and griefing. Trammel, as poorly implemented as it was, actually gave UO new life, and kept people playing it for years afterward. It was not the best solution, but it was the one that saved their game and embraced more than the niche playerbase of hardcore PVP veterans. Games are a business, and the goal of any business is to make money. Catering to a specific type of player is not healthy for longevity.

    The mindset that it LoA is solely a PVP game is wrong. It is an integral part of it, but not the only reason to play. They have to accommodate those players that may not want to PVP all the time.
  • ValhaloValhalo Australia

    People don't like to hear this, but I will post it anyway:the Wild West rules of Ultima Online were responsible for Trammel. The game had 100,000 subscribers at its peak. More than half of new subscribers would quit the game because of the constant ganking and griefing. Trammel, as poorly implemented as it was, actually gave UO new life, and kept people playing it for years afterward. It was not the best solution, but it was the one that saved their game and embraced more than the niche playerbase of hardcore PVP veterans. Games are a business, and the goal of any business is to make money. Catering to a specific type of player is not healthy for longevity.

    The mindset that it LoA is solely a PVP game is wrong. It is an integral part of it, but not the only reason to play. They have to accommodate those players that may not want to PVP all the time.

    So you think that it is essential for the success of the game to have a ridiculous instant death safe zone over a NPC guard based system? I'm sorry but no, I cannot agree with this, the system they have in place now is just lazy over everything else.
  • I do, yes. It's been in place since Shards Online, the previous iteration of the game, and it won't be going anywhere. Dying to the guards in the green zones is not a problem with the game. The issue exists between the keyboard and the chair. You choose to attack players in a protected area, then you deal with the consequences. Perhaps the developers could provide a better explanation to new players, but to say its a flawed system simply because it happened to you does not reinforce your point at all.
  • ValhaloValhalo Australia
    edited July 14

    Dying to the guards in the green zones is not a problem with the game. The issue exists between the keyboard and the chair.reinforce your point at all.

    You do not die to guards, there are no guards, that is what I want, guards I don't want to be zapped with lightning from the sky the second I do something illegal.

    You choose to attack players in a protected area, then you deal with the consequences.

    There is no choice, I cannot make the choice to attack a player in a protected area because the game does not give me the choice, until there is a way to achieve over 5000 health there never will be a choice.
  • YorlikYorlik www.arcanima.org

    People don't like to hear this, but I will post it anyway:the Wild West rules of Ultima Online were responsible for Trammel. The game had 100,000 subscribers at its peak. More than half of new subscribers would quit the game because of the constant ganking and griefing. Trammel, as poorly implemented as it was, actually gave UO new life, and kept people playing it for years afterward. It was not the best solution, but it was the one that saved their game and embraced more than the niche playerbase of hardcore PVP veterans. Games are a business, and the goal of any business is to make money. Catering to a specific type of player is not healthy for longevity.

    The mindset that it LoA is solely a PVP game is wrong. It is an integral part of it, but not the only reason to play. They have to accommodate those players that may not want to PVP all the time.

    +100

    It's all about civilizing what I call the "Naked Monkey".
    Managing PvP in the core means managing humans
    ability for plain sadism and primitive domination.
    Certain PvPers will never ever accept any restrictions
    while others will, because they understand that unrestricted
    PvP is just destructive and not really sportive .
    It has been discussed a gazillion times and it will be discussed
    over and over again, because humans never really change.

    IMO PvP works if and only if players have a choice to join the PvP game
    or not. That means risk management is given to the players.

    That's how EvE Online achived solving the conundrum of PvPers
    and PvEers on one server. You can decide to go to LowSec or NullSec
    and you have the Wormhole space. Concord is unforgiving and
    evading/glitching away them as a Ganker is considered cheating.
    Such people can decide how they want to play at a given time and
    the Risk vs Reward balance is kept by putting better resources into
    the dangerous zones.

    The PvP discussion here mostly is about
    "I want to be able to kill everyone everywhere without any meaningful
    restrictions, just because I want to, because I am into this game and
    I give a fuck about how others feel about it."
    - Naked Monkey game, that is -
  • ValhaloValhalo Australia
    Yorlik said:

    >

    The PvP discussion here mostly is about
    "I want to be able to kill everyone everywhere without any meaningful
    restrictions, just because I want to, because I am into this game and
    I give a fuck about how others feel about it."

    No, the discussion is about a lazy unrealistic mechanic that unnecessarily takes away a huge chunk of freedom, PvP should not always be consensual, when PvP is always consensual it takes away from any form of meaningful conflict, I do not want to be able to farm in safety of 'the gods' when I leave town I want to feel like there is a risk, I want to be ganked by a guild, I want to exact revenge on them that is the fun part of the Player vs Player experience. I don't want the game to be a FFA, all I want is to replace the dumb instant death mechanic with the NPC guard based system that almost every other MMO uses.
  • Then leave the green zones. Go to a yellow or red zone. There are plenty of them. Dungeons are exclusively PVP areas with no safety. So is the desert with the exception of the Oasis. The Black Forest, the areas north and west of Eldeir, all unprotected. Outside Valus, unprotected. There are huge swathes of land where you can enjoy the risk vs reward gameplay.
  • Hazard89Hazard89 Terra Australis
    Oh. So this is the direction it's going. I'm out. I don't regret my donation to fund the game, but this is not the UO revival I was hoping for.

    There are other games that will give me what I want and those will be the ones I will be investing my time and money into.

    Very sad this game failed me. I had high hopes, but oh well. These are the risks we're all too used to these days. I promised myself this was the last early access title I back and I've had no trouble sticking by that.
  • YorlikYorlik www.arcanima.org
    edited July 23
    Valhalo said:


    ... No, the discussion is about a lazy unrealistic mechanic that unnecessarily takes away a huge chunk of freedom, PvP should not always be consensual, when PvP is always consensual it takes away from any form of meaningful conflict, I do not want to be able to farm in safety of 'the gods' when I leave town I want to feel like there is a risk, I want to be ganked by a guild, I want to exact revenge on them that is the fun part of the Player vs Player experience. ...

    There is a fundamental misunderstanding here:

    Of course there should be a possibility of nonconsensual PvP.

    But as a player you should have a choice (like freedom of choice),
    if you want that style of game (at a given day) or not.
    My impression is, that many PvP proponents have an idea of freedom,
    which is mostly their own freedom, but not the freedom of others,
    who are not interested in PvP at a given point in time (though they might another day).

    It is a fundamental gamedesign principle to not fuck with the players.
    Giving players the choice and means to manage their risk is paramount.
    That choice should be possible inside the game and not just by deciding
    to play the game or not.
    If you have no choice but always playing this specific type of PvP game,
    the game is greatly narrowing down it's audience.
    I personally like PvP at times, but not always. I want to have the freedom to
    decide how I can play at a given day - the zones are a perfect means to allow that.

    The safe zones or their size are totally not the problem.
    The problem is the lack of appropriate risk versus reward balance.

    If there is no incentive to go to the red zones they become meaningless. Thats bad.
    If you are forced to go there if the game should be playable and fun for you also something is wrong.
    Risk-Reward is a finicky balance, which will most likely never satisfy everyone,
    my wish would only be that this balance is kinda in a halfway sane middleground.

    I played Eve Online for a while and was happy to have the safe zones until I was familiar
    enough with the game to delve into LowSec, NullSec and the Wormhole space where there
    are more and better resources.

    That balance yet has to be met by LoA, but not by restricting the safe zones to cities only.
  • VyrilVyril US
    edited July 23
    Valhalo said:

    This game isn't for you, if all your posts are how you feel.
  • DKuangDKuang New York City
    Unrealistic lightning bolts insta killing you? UO, when you called "guards!" summoned a halberd wielding guard that one hit and lightning bolted you from thin air, realistic right? And "summoning" melee guards out of thin air is very realistic as well, as I'm sure we have security drones and cctv's everywhere in the world of LoA? Not to mention universal microphones to pick up on your calls for help?

    You want realism? Then I suppose you're in the same crowd that supports the coin weight issue where coins don't convert to the next tier unless you bank or buy something at an npc merchant? Ugh..I don't even get it, it's for quality of life and less frustration of game play.

    Back on the topic. I'd suggest you keep the whole "karma protection" thing on if you're in a protected zone and don't want to get insta killed for being an asshole by looting someones body or their kills. That or attacking them, it's automatically enabled and the fact people forget about it and still try to be a douche in protected zones just reinforces the fact, people HAVE to be policed in some form or another. If you don't and give everyone total freedom to choose to pvp whenever, and wherever? Then this game will just spiral into more of a shit storm than what it already is and will be dead on arrival once it hits Steam or a larger audience...because no one is going to play this except for hardcore pvpers. Which quite frankly is like 10%-20% of the population.

    If you want open pvp and more danger, stop hanging out in Valus or the towns and guarded zones then. PLENTY and I mean PLENTY of portions of the world map are unprotected. Let me guess? You're new and are too scared to venture into the game? You want to stay in Valus get gains and have a shot at murking, ganking, or stealing from others when you have the upper hand? Because that's what it sounds like but I'm sorry buddy, you can't have your cake and eat it too.

    If you want pvp everywhere, then leave the protected zones. Simple. You can't be a backseat pvp in safe zones and loot someone or kill someone when the opportunity is ripe for you, doesn't work that way buddy. Grow some balls, be a real pvp like you claim to be, live with risk, go farm and grind in the unprotected zones.
  • edited July 23
    Valhalo said:

    Yorlik said:

    >

    The PvP discussion here mostly is about
    "I want to be able to kill everyone everywhere without any meaningful
    restrictions, just because I want to, because I am into this game and
    I give a fuck about how others feel about it."

    No, the discussion is about a lazy unrealistic mechanic that unnecessarily takes away a huge chunk of freedom, PvP should not always be consensual, when PvP is always consensual it takes away from any form of meaningful conflict, I do not want to be able to farm in safety of 'the gods' when I leave town I want to feel like there is a risk, I want to be ganked by a guild, I want to exact revenge on them that is the fun part of the Player vs Player experience. I don't want the game to be a FFA, all I want is to replace the dumb instant death mechanic with the NPC guard based system that almost every other MMO uses.
    Then join the servers with different rule sets when the game launches. There will be different versions of official and community servers. What you are playing on now is just one with a "standardized" experience.

    If you think mechanics and other things should be changed, by all means, give your feedback! But if the current, ONE, official server isn't for you right now, keep in mind that there are going to be a lot of options, including make your own rules on your own server!
  • edited July 23
    The only real big issue I have with the current system is some of the regions like Breca Mines for example where part of the area is unprotected and part way into the caves protected. People abusing the guard and protected zones when they start losing a PvP battle they're actively fighting back in needs to be addressed. There should either be a cooldown to entering a protected zone/guard wack for both people actively fighting not just the person who started the fight.

    Wouldn't mind an option for a visual border of where protected and unprotected zones start and end with how people try to bait attacks and using ranged or magic when people try to run into them with the system as is.

    But yeah you want PvP and risk leave the protected zones.
  • Hazard89 said:

    Oh. So this is the direction it's going. I'm out. I don't regret my donation to fund the game, but this is not the UO revival I was hoping for.

    There are other games that will give me what I want and those will be the ones I will be investing my time and money into.

    Very sad this game failed me. I had high hopes, but oh well. These are the risks we're all too used to these days. I promised myself this was the last early access title I back and I've had no trouble sticking by that.

    I don't know how you feel about anything in this thread, and I don't care. Glad to see your knee-jerk reaction complex moving to other games.
  • Yorlik said:


    That's how EvE Online achived solving the conundrum of PvPers
    and PvEers on one server. You can decide to go to LowSec or NullSec
    and you have the Wormhole space. Concord is unforgiving and
    evading/glitching away them as a Ganker is considered cheating.
    Such people can decide how they want to play at a given time and
    the Risk vs Reward balance is kept by putting better resources into
    the dangerous zones.

    Concord is unforgiving, and just like the real world, is fairly easy to manipulate by ass-hats who just want to ruin other peoples days.

    As for the OP, I completely agree that I would rather see guards show up, then to have a lightning blast from the gods. You can have fun messing with guards. I remember once sitting in a back and casting the blades spell, then hiding. There were no players around, but NPCs were hit, and then the guards showed up. They couldn't see me as I was hidden, but one of them was actually hit by the spinning blades of death. The guard went on and on about how he had been wounded, and was bleeding. Was super funny. I had to stay there of course, until the criminal timer was finished.
  • The only real big issue I have with the current system is some of the regions like Breca Mines for example where part of the area is unprotected and part way into the caves protected. People abusing the guard and protected zones when they start losing a PvP battle they're actively fighting back in needs to be addressed. There should either be a cooldown to entering a protected zone/guard wack for both people actively fighting not just the person who started the fight.

    Wouldn't mind an option for a visual border of where protected and unprotected zones start and end with how people try to bait attacks and using ranged or magic when people try to run into them with the system as is.

    But yeah you want PvP and risk leave the protected zones.

    Actually, I would like this to remain somewhat vague. Perhaps even with some location variation per player, just so we don't have people knowingly using the mechanic to grief others.
  • Theres also two factions you can join that allows PK anywhere on the map. Im sure people like you would join up and do as you want with because it's unprotected zones anywhere.

  • ValhaloValhalo Australia
    DKuang said:

    Unrealistic lightning bolts insta killing you? UO, when you called "guards!" summoned a halberd wielding guard that one hit and lightning bolted you from thin air, realistic right? And "summoning" melee guards out of thin air is very realistic as well, as I'm sure we have security drones and cctv's everywhere in the world of LoA? Not to mention universal microphones to pick up on your calls for help?

    You want realism? Then I suppose you're in the same crowd that supports the coin weight issue where coins don't convert to the next tier unless you bank or buy something at an npc merchant? Ugh..I don't even get it, it's for quality of life and less frustration of game play.

    Back on the topic. I'd suggest you keep the whole "karma protection" thing on if you're in a protected zone and don't want to get insta killed for being an asshole by looting someones body or their kills. That or attacking them, it's automatically enabled and the fact people forget about it and still try to be a douche in protected zones just reinforces the fact, people HAVE to be policed in some form or another. If you don't and give everyone total freedom to choose to pvp whenever, and wherever? Then this game will just spiral into more of a shit storm than what it already is and will be dead on arrival once it hits Steam or a larger audience...because no one is going to play this except for hardcore pvpers. Which quite frankly is like 10%-20% of the population.

    If you want open pvp and more danger, stop hanging out in Valus or the towns and guarded zones then. PLENTY and I mean PLENTY of portions of the world map are unprotected. Let me guess? You're new and are too scared to venture into the game? You want to stay in Valus get gains and have a shot at murking, ganking, or stealing from others when you have the upper hand? Because that's what it sounds like but I'm sorry buddy, you can't have your cake and eat it too.

    If you want pvp everywhere, then leave the protected zones. Simple. You can't be a backseat pvp in safe zones and loot someone or kill someone when the opportunity is ripe for you, doesn't work that way buddy. Grow some balls, be a real pvp like you claim to be, live with risk, go farm and grind in the unprotected zones.

    This post was almost constructive until your emotional tangent towards the end, did I suggest summoning guards? No. Am I purely pushing the agenda of realism? Also No. NPC guards are the way to go in any MMO, I did not ask for it to be exactly like UO, I have yet to mention that game once. I do understand that my view has slightly changed throughout the post as I discover more about the game so I have to stress that my views are:

    USE PATROLLING NPC GUARDS

    REDUCE THE SIZE OF SAFE ZONES- I am not asking to remove them whatsoever.

    You tell me to leave the protected zones if I want risk, but in my time playing I have not found a reason to leave the protected zones, the risk vs reward is completely out of whack. Also yes, I should be able to kill someone when I think the opportunity is right and I should be able to be killed if someone sees it as an opportunistic action, the fact that I have to actively search for PvP is just wrong, that takes all of the risk out of it, you may as well consider it consensual at that point.
  • ValhaloValhalo Australia
    Vyril said:

    Valhalo said:

    This game isn't for you, if all your posts are how you feel.
    I disagree.
  • Hunter86Hunter86 Florida
    Fairly certain GvG and Factions, if implemented correctly/factions touched up, would help with most of your issues.

    Beyond that the flagging system definitely needs to be touched up and y’all are right about the risk/reward for leaving protected being shit right now.

    Insta death Zeus bolts is the least bit concerning.


    Make a negative aggressor flagged to all, not just the person they attack. If they die their corpse should be lootable by all forever... not only until flag wears off.

    Move all high end mats out of protected.

    Add gvg.

    Factions needs some sort of points system beyond just a title. Perhaps some cosmetic wear and some sort of buff for points earned towards this gear for the faction in current control/lead. Try adding control points in towns that when controlled gain points for the faction. Keep titles for individual accolades and only certain COSMETIC gear(still has to be pvp viable) attainable and wearable by individuals with “X” amount of points. Johnny blow could kill king slayer of valus and sell or display his gear if he hasn’t acquired the required points to wear it.

    Again.. Move all high end mats out of protected.
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