PKing and the Lack of Penalty associated with it.

CryodacryCryodacry cryodacry@hotmail.com
So I've Farted around in this game and there is almost no reason not to run around just slaughtering everyone ... If a Red Dies there is almost no penalty to it. A lot of people will take an opportunist approach to killing someone. There is no real penalty to the act of Player Killing ? Sure if you go red you can't visit the "Blue" towns but they have their own towns that explicitly protect them. So this goes back to where is the penalty ? UO atleast had skill loss for ressing while red.
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Comments

  • SanyaSanya Inside your computer Administrator
    We're still working through consequences to just being a straight up murderer.

    Part of the reason we invited a wave of new people was because the existing players are largely waiting for the wipe :)
  • CryodacryCryodacry cryodacry@hotmail.com
    @Sanya Though the problem i am seeing is the fact that my buddies who own the game refuse to play the game as there are no penalties for murder... Murders have so much protection in this game that there is no reason to not be one. This is something that is pivotal prior to your Steam release. I would even side on the side of being harsh on the penalties at first and back off from them latter. Either way if you release with out harsh penalties Murders will single-handedly kill this game. I know there is a large identity crisis going on with this game. You are trying to appeal to the PVP'rs and the PVE'rs... One of my buddies refuses to play as he is working on his taming. You force tamers out into unprotected areas to work on beast mastery. He is getting slaughters for the pure joy of just slaughtering a new player. All because they can. Where else is he supposed to raise his beast mastery other than on Beatles ? He doesn't even have loot on him ... just some bandages ... The fact that there are no consequences for these actions fosters a bad gaming culture that will breed a toxic environment... This will strait up kill the game.

    I have anouther friend that strait up will not play the game unless there are PVE only official Shards... He even owns the game ...
  • beater07beater07 America
    Cryodacry,

    Fortunately for you guys there will be community servers where murdering is disabled.

    You cant really complain about the murdering at this point because pretty much no one is playing right now and those that are have nothing to do so they murder. Once the wipe happens and the game is flooded with players, the players will keep the reds in check. We don't need strict rules or harsh punishments to be dished out by the game. I do believe in some basic inconveniences for murderers and some basic protections for blues but nothing drastic.
  • CryodacryCryodacry cryodacry@hotmail.com
    Beater we are going to have to dis-agree here ... Because if there isn't a form of punishment associated with it .... Reds will res and go kill more new blue players with out impunity....

    your romanticizing the idea that there will be a band of blues that will group up to hunt down that evil red.... that is not going to happen. On the Hypothetical if .... If that did happen there is nothing to stop the red from ressing / re-equipping .... and going right bact after it. This is a HUGE problem for the game. Wolves need Sheep .... So there needs to be some form of population control on the wolves if there are not enough sheep to go around. The fact that it's already strangling the game is bad enough... You say people are doing it because they are board.... what do you think is going to happen latter on 3 months into release. Think they wont be bored anymore ? The reality is ... The reality is there needs to be more mechanics to Inhibit Murder. UO's 20 % skill loss on Res was pretty spot on...
  • beater07beater07 America
    I'm not romanticizing that blues will kill reds, because I've seen it work in UO.

    Red/blue battles and territorial control are part of the features of the game, not something we should severely punish, other wise why not just remove the ability to kill someone else, which sounds like what you want so you can get that on a community server.

    It is totally possible that the reds get out of control and then we'd need some mechanic to do some countering but making harsh punishments out of the box to reds to the point that the game isn't fun for them we might as well not have reds and just have hand shake consent only PVP.

    This thread just reopens the the issue that there are people that like open PVP and are okay getting killed and there are people that want it controlled because they can't stand getting randomly killed without their consent, and there is no satisfying both other than having different servers with different rulesets. CS is attempting to do the impossible and create a one size fits all server but I've not that much faith they will pull it off without turning a great game into an okay game for both of those groups because of the major compromises they have to make to both styles of gameplay. Both will be to watered down too much and then we'll all be looking at community servers.
  • NocturnNocturn Arch-Necromancer
    edited June 7
    The blue/red cycle worked in UO, SO, and LoA when those guild types are active. There's alot of players waiting or just quit but the torch will always be passed around.

    I'm still for temporary stat and skill loss, if a red dies by a player that's not red. Put the stat/skill loss on a timer, let's say 4 hours and stack up to a total of 3-5 times. If the red so happens to get a kill that's not another red, decrease 1 stack. This way would be kinda exploitable because of other character slots or guild mate character slots. So if one stack is removed by player, lock out that player ID to decrease stacks for say 7 days since it takes 7 days to delete a character. Sure it locks away from decreasing stats/skill penalties from that one player but reds still get full loot from them.
  • MytaMyta Here
    I just stumbled upon this game, I do not even have access and never played it. But I think it looks interesting, and I would like it to be successfull. So here is a general comment on this topic.

    If you want to have a full loot open pvp game, then you have to cater to the pve players.

    There is already a huge amount of mmos where you can be perfectly safe from pvp. The pve players can go wherever they want. But there is only a small amount of sucessfull open pvp sandbox games*.
    The pvp players wont leave if the red penalty is a little too harsh. If they really want to pvp in this game and not just troll around a bit before leaving (which is the kind of player you cant build a shard on anyway) they will either accept the penalties or fight as blues. They will stick around, because there are not many alternatives.
    The sheep will just leave for greener pastures. Of which there are plenty. And once all sheep are gone, because getting ganked all the time is no fun for them, the game will be dead.

    If you want open pvp with full loot, then allow it in the game mechanic and then focus on making the sheep happy. Penalties for murderers, safe zones, semi-safe zones, interesting crafting mechanics etc. These players are the foundation of the game, without them its not going to work. They need to be happy.
    Just leave some motivation for the sheep to go in the dangerous zones where they can be slaugthered. But it should feel like an adventure, a voluntary risk with a fair chance of success. The example of Cryodacry is how it is not supposed to be. If the tamer has no choice but to go in the dangerous zone, and if he cant do anything reasonable to survive against ganker there, then he wont be playing for long.

    If the penalties are too harsh you can always loosen them a little. But once no pve players are left you can bury the game. UO worked in the beginning (before Trammel) because it was basically the only mmo out there. And still the introduction of Trammel brought a huge increase of players.

    I have seen this kind of discussion so many times when new sandbox mmorpgs with full loot rules are in development. Usually the developers like pvp otherwise they wouldnt make any kind of full loot rules. And many players in the forums too. After all there are not many alternatives. So all agree on making rules that allow a lot of pvp. Then there is launch. The pve players realize they are mostly there as victims which is no fun so they leave to different games. Most of the pvp players realize they do not actually want to pvp, but just slaugther victims that do not fight back, so either they leave too, or try to join large zergs so they can still fight while being safe. Soon the game is dead.

    *In fact can I can think of only a single sucessfull one, which is eve online. The rest is dying or dead. And while eve is hard, you can be very very safe from random ganking there. Even (or especially) in Nullsec. And if I remember the statistics correctly, even though eve is known has a hard pvp game, the majority of players is actually in the safe space of highsec.
  • JubbinJubbin Washington State
    Punishment for being red... Hmmmmm, let me see...
  • JubbinJubbin Washington State
    you make it sound like Blues are helpless against red named players. lolol. The penalty for being a PK'er is being KOS to protected areas and being limited to just running and /stuck to go places.

    it would be cool if you could chop the head off of someone with low karma and get that in copper in return if you gave the head to a guard or something.

    I had -30k that would be 3 gold right? ^^ that would be cool.
  • JubbinJubbin Washington State
    then you would want to find reds ;)
  • MytaMyta Here
    1. The punishment of not being able to enter protected areas is insufficient when the protected areas are only towns while there also exist red town anyway. You need serious drawbacks.

    2. The problem is not that blue players are helpless against reds, its not that they do not have a theoretical option to fight back. The problem is the lack of an incentive to do so, and the lack of an option that actually achieves something. Sure you could form a group to hunt reds, and you might drive them back for a moment, but whats the point? That does not help with doing pve, once you go back to pve, the reds will simply reapear, unless you have a system that really punishes reds (for example very long respawn times, stat or skill loss that prevents them from going into fights right again), or a system that allows to to actually make an area safe (as with deep blue nullsec in eve where you can have an intel network, monitor and bubble the gates etc.).
    If you just want to pve there is a much better and easier solution than trying to hunt reds: go somewhere else. Either a shard that does not allow murder, or a different game. And that is exactly what is going to happen.
    And if you want to pvp there is also a better option: go red yourself, that way you have more and easier targets.

    Blues fighting back against reds is simply not going to happen unless you put a lot of thought into a system that creates the right motivation.

    3. The bounty suggestion is only going to work if there is a larger disincentive for the reds to be killed, than for the blues to kill them. Otherwise the system will just be abused with reds killing themselvs with alts for profit.
    For example you could take that bounty out of the reds pocket, and if he does not have that amount of money, the character has to go jail for a serious time. But there needs to be a punishment involved that is guaranteed to be at least equal to the gain, otherwise the system is guaranteed to be abused. Players can be very creative in finding loopholes in such a system.
  • beater07beater07 America
    edited June 8
    I will try and stay civilized here. But this thread is somewhat rediculous. This is a niche game, it is not a pve theme park (speaking of official server).

    Might be hard for you to believe OP, but we are not looking to punish reds to the point that makes their play style not fun. We might as well just remove the ability to attack anyone without their consent.

    And to be clear, PVP players do NOT need you (pve) players, they just need pve players that also like or tolerate PVP. Which for a niche game there are plenty of them. So let the sheep leave to the mega theme park games and this game will still survive just fine as a niche game without them.

    If you view being killed as a problem, and not a feature, then this game isn't for you, at least not official.

    And by the way I'm a pve player.
  • SachaSacha [Reino de Aldor]
    Myta said:

    2. The problem is not that blue players are helpless against reds, its not that they do not have a theoretical option to fight back. The problem is the lack of an incentive to do so, and the lack of an option that actually achieves something. [...]

    +1 @Myta

  • JubbinJubbin Washington State
    Sacha said:

    Myta said:

    2. The problem is not that blue players are helpless against reds, its not that they do not have a theoretical option to fight back. The problem is the lack of an incentive to do so, and the lack of an option that actually achieves something. [...]

    +1 @Myta

    So what do you have in mind?
    Reds do have their own towns like blues do. But they are on separate parts of the region. Reds are stuck with no ports, no gatekeeper action and they have to run to said "Blue" towns. I'd suggest going red to see how you like being stuck on 1 side of the map lol. I'm not defending that there shouldn't be more of an impact on being red, but what are you shooting for? What do you really think Reds need for punishment.
  • XinnosukeXinnosuke United States
    Just remove red towns completely.

    This way, if someone wants to be a red, they risk having no interaction with banks, town vendors, etc, and simply storing away their loot from kills wont be easy unless they have a house.

    Allow red houses to be raided so blues can raid their houses and get their loot back.

    I'd at least feel somewhat inclined to go on a hunt against reds that killed me if I knew I had this option to maybe get my items back.

    It should NOT be easy to be a red.
  • JubbinJubbin Washington State
    Xinnosuke said:

    Just remove red towns completely.

    This way, if someone wants to be a red, they risk having no interaction with banks, town vendors, etc, and simply storing away their loot from kills wont be easy unless they have a house.

    Allow red houses to be raided so blues can raid their houses and get their loot back.

    I'd at least feel somewhat inclined to go on a hunt against reds that killed me if I knew I had this option to maybe get my items back.

    It should NOT be easy to be a red.

    So you want Reds to not have bandages or reagents lol.... k.
    raiding houses that belong to reds? eh just terrible lol..
    You're idea makes it pointless to be a red.
    Let's all hold hands and be friends.
  • JubbinJubbin Washington State
    How I see it, Reds should be allowed to roam anywhere other than (Green)protected towns.
    Maybe have their own Gatekeeper that takes them opposite of the normal gatekeeper so they can roam period. Done.

    If you're blue and got rekt by a Red and worried about it... Make a PvP toon and get better at PvP.
    if you got ganked by multi Reds, then that's what guilds are for.
    Make friends, get a guild going, and dominate. Stop trying to make the game carebare. It's so close to being complete now with the latest patch notes... Stop QQing about small stuff.
  • XinnosukeXinnosuke United States
    Jubbin said:

    Xinnosuke said:

    Just remove red towns completely.

    This way, if someone wants to be a red, they risk having no interaction with banks, town vendors, etc, and simply storing away their loot from kills wont be easy unless they have a house.

    Allow red houses to be raided so blues can raid their houses and get their loot back.

    I'd at least feel somewhat inclined to go on a hunt against reds that killed me if I knew I had this option to maybe get my items back.

    It should NOT be easy to be a red.

    So you want Reds to not have bandages or reagents lol.... k.
    raiding houses that belong to reds? eh just terrible lol..
    You're idea makes it pointless to be a red.
    Let's all hold hands and be friends.
    It isn't like a red won't get bandages or reagents, amongst other things, from killing players anyways.
  • JubbinJubbin Washington State
    Xinnosuke said:

    Jubbin said:

    Xinnosuke said:

    Just remove red towns completely.

    This way, if someone wants to be a red, they risk having no interaction with banks, town vendors, etc, and simply storing away their loot from kills wont be easy unless they have a house.

    Allow red houses to be raided so blues can raid their houses and get their loot back.

    I'd at least feel somewhat inclined to go on a hunt against reds that killed me if I knew I had this option to maybe get my items back.

    It should NOT be easy to be a red.

    So you want Reds to not have bandages or reagents lol.... k.
    raiding houses that belong to reds? eh just terrible lol..
    You're idea makes it pointless to be a red.
    Let's all hold hands and be friends.
    It isn't like a red won't get bandages or reagents, amongst other things, from killing players anyways.
    :|
  • SachaSacha [Reino de Aldor]
    Removing red towns and making them pariahs would only work if we could have no alts. But as is now, that is uneffective.
    Also, reds life must not be too hard or boring, or else there's no point in having reds. Their life should be fun but risky.
    What I would suggest is devise and put in some mechanism by which if a red becomes quite important and annoying, blues could kill him forever.
    This should be a difficult task, that needed a well organized party of blues, with both skill and luck. Something not easily acomplished, but that gives reds a real sense of threat and danger if caught, and give blues a real sense of success if done.
    I don't know what kind of action that would be. Maybe something that requires a combination of:
    a)- a GM rogue that sneaks from behind and traps the red, in a special movement that requires 100 skill.
    b)- a GM mage that in that moment casts a powerful spell that holds the red soul so it can be separated from his body. This spell would also require 100 skill & mana.
    c)- a GM fighter that then makes a special blow that cuts the red's head and breaks the link with his soul. Again this special blow would have highest requirements.

    That is, devise a remote and almost impossible way that a red could be permadead.
  • edited June 9
    Here is a type of bounty system I have been thinking about:

    - Upon being killed by a blue player, a red player is sent to a prison labor camp, where he/she would have to obtain a certain amount of ores or logs in order to be released. The amount of material required would be based on the red player's karma or kills since last imprisonment.

    - The imprisoned red player can also pay a significant fine to be released. The fine would also be based on the red player's karma or kills since last imprisonment.

    - If a red is killed by a red, the dead red player is not imprisoned.

    - If a blue was responsible for killing the red player, that player will receive get the "gold equivalent" of the gathered resources once the red player finishes the job at the labor camp. Or, in case the red player paid a fine to be released, the blue player would receive a fraction of thay fine.

    - The resources obtained by the red player's hard work would be shared among the red player's victims since his/her last imprisonment. Or, in case the red player paid a fine to be released, these victims would share a fraction of the fine.

    This would make it hard for reds to exploit the "bounty" since they would have to really work for it anyway. This also emulates a little better what would happen to a real criminal when caught by authorities - which is part of the reason some people think twice about becoming criminals.
  • Zxcv said:

    Here is a type of bounty system I have been thinking about:

    - Upon being killed by a blue player, a red player is sent to a prison labor camp, where he/she would have to obtain a certain amount of ores or logs in order to be released. The amount of material required would be based on the red player's karma or kills since last imprisonment.

    - The imprisoned red player can also pay a significant fine to be released. The fine would also be based on the red player's karma or kills since last imprisonment.

    - If a red is killed by a red, the dead red player is not imprisoned.

    - If a blue was responsible for killing the red player, that player will receive get the "gold equivalent" of the gathered resources once the red player finishes the job at the labor camp. Or, in case the red player paid a fine to be released, the blue player would receive a fraction of thay fine.

    - The resources obtained by the red player's hard work would be shared among the red player's victims since his/her last imprisonment. Or, in case the red player paid a fine to be released, these victims would share a fraction of the fine.

    This would make it hard for reds to exploit the "bounty" since they would have to really work for it anyway. This also emulates a little better what would happen to a real criminal when caught by authorities - which is part of the reason some people think twice about becoming criminals.

    why we do not perma ban reds

    i played ten years uo and there was blues and cry always , if there is no Reds There is no game , this is not Wow "collect all gears and walk as brad pitt" this is not Uo

    PK s life always in risk if you are not good player you can not to be Red this is not connection with Group if you dont know to game 1 person can kill 5 person , Reds must use their best gear always everywhere but blues only in safety areas ussualy

    plus this is not chield game ( i m talking about uo style game )

    if we come penalty ,there was just stats lost usually ( if server population is high around 2 all stats if low populiaton around 4 -5 ) there was reskill to at vanilla Uo

    so pls do not cry or complain for reds because if reds population so low or there is no reds you guys send this game to rubbish

    finally Realy I am So so so sorry for my engslih :(

    thx for readers
  • edited June 9
    I'm fine with how things are right now actually. However, I like to think about alternatives as there might be a better system to be discoreved out there. ;)

    I agree that reds are a necessary component of this type of game. It is a game that is driven a lot more by player conflict and interaction than by pre-designed content.
  • everybody must be brave , is there penalty for hordes / alliance in wow ? not ok this is not wow there is full loot ,this game nice cos of reason you must brave ,you must plan , you must organized and everybody must know nobody is superhero in this game there is just one criteria you are good player or not ( for PVP ) if you are not good player this not mean you can not play this game you would be crafter , tamer , miner , thief etc... and you can so much fun with these too ( with group )
  • beater07beater07 America
    I like Zxcv's thoughts on perma death in certain cases. Maybe if your karma gets too low (you are serious murderer/griefer) then your character enters a perma-kill potential state. Or just a rough number like top 10% of lowest karma characters will be perma death capable.

    So only the worst of the worst murderers would risk getting deleted if they stay in the top 10%. It is the risk they take for killing so many people. The rest of the 90% of murderers would not be at risk for being deleted.

    Can you imagine the drama and battles that would happen if blues had the motivation of hunting reds because there was to potential to get them perma deleted? This would help keep the reds in check without strict game mechanics governing things.
  • edited June 10
    Honestly - I am more interested in the ideas that Sanya and team has been working on, but why would she share them? No matter what they are the majority of the people here would complain about them.
  • SanyaSanya Inside your computer Administrator
    Scattered notes, sorry if this makes no sense - I didn't write it all at once but in bits and pieces over two hours in between other things!

    *****

    A note about towns:

    I'm wondering if we're using the terms to mean the same thing that you are :)

    We don't have "red towns," not in the sense that reds can do whatever. If you want those, you will have to build them yourselves.

    We do have some outposts, where the intent is for reds to not be KOS, but PVP will trigger guard retribution.

    *****

    Permadeath is a no, unless you build your own server and give it a go :)

    *****

    We're still working on a bounty system. I don't claim that'll be a cureall for all the reasons stated in this thread, but I think it'll be both fun and better than nothing.

    *****

    We think the new travel system and the restrictions on red players from using it constitutes a pretty decent penalty. What'd you all think of that?
  • SachaSacha [Reino de Aldor]
    Sanya said:

    Permadeath is a no, unless you build your own server and give it a go :)

    Mine will surely have it, both for reds and blues, but I understand that having it automatical can be very problematic. As we aim to a much smaller population, we will handle permadeath with personalized attention :wink:

  • MytaMyta Here
    Sanya said:

    We think the new travel system and the restrictions on red players from using it constitutes a pretty decent penalty. What'd you all think of that?

    I think so too. Considering the size of the map and the protected zones, the lack of fast travel could be harsh enough that there is a reason to stay blue.
    At the same time it helps that killing a red player achieves something, since he cannot come back so easy.
  • Wolves need Sheep .... So there needs to be some form of population control on the wolves if there are not enough sheep to go around. The fact that it's already strangling the game is bad enough...
    agree here, you have to make it a part of the world, just like in UO you lost stats and skill upon death in pvp/pve being a murderer. without sheep the wolf leave too and the whole world colapses
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