Dear Victims of the Gank

After reading a fair number of posts resulting from upset of being killed by one or many player killers, I humbly request you consider the following point of view with the hope we can transform upset to celebration.

CS has created this game, a game in the style of a sandbox that genuinely shines when the spirit of player choice, in as many facets of the game, are allowed. Game developers work to add content (sand) and rules to lay a foundation upon which those playing the game can have the freedom and options to find fun. What CS can't do; what no game developer can do, is provide the content that its players can. Herein lies the the opportunities that sadly, many are missing.

In a game like this, where open PvP, ganking, hopefully soon-to-come guild wars, can be had, the best way of countering the frustration of being a victim is to resurrect and write yourself a quest. Find a way of expressing your feelings in-to an in-game philosophy that can either be the basis for a new guild or consistent with the rules of conduct of an existing one and join them, or grow that guild.

A game like this one shines when players take responsibility and create their own content. For example, Player X or 10x Player X gank you, kills you without you having a chance, takes your hard earned new shining armor or weapon. Did you screenshot; record their names, perhaps find a common guild tag. Great, so now make it your business to pay them back. Find their guild town, favorite hunting spots; learn their habits and camp the crap out of them with your friends. What, you say you have no friends? Well, this is a massive online game; find some !!

My point is only this. So long as we rely upon game developers to provide all our content and protections, we are losing out on the potential in any game. Where we have a sandbox styple game such as this, with PvP as a large component, the opportunity to add our own content and make the experience far greater and more memorable than most games can dream of, is here in spades. The only thing stopping us, is us. If those who find themselves frustrated at being ganked, unfairly assaulted, whatever, would simply turn that energy in-to finding others that have similar philosophies and understand how to have each-others backs, the potential and enjoyment factor can be huge.

I've been playing these games since UO released in Sept. of 97' and one thing I've noticed time and again; the more we rely upon game developers to "protect us", the less the players of the game matter and more anemic the game feels. In fact, the most successful game with PvP that I've probably played was Ashersons Call on the DarkTide server and I know why. On that server, every character was born red. There were no protections from developers. What that meant were players had to create their own rules. Guilds had to stand for something, own towns and members of guilds had to have each-others backs. Give me a game where a friend or guild-mate has your back over figuring out more code where a developer tries to simulate that any day and you have a game that is far more fun and far more memorable.

That is all. Thank you for reading.

Zafu
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Comments

  • Very well said!!
  • I like what you wrote, and your title made me smile. :)

    Asherons Call was a really fun game. I enjoyed it much more than I thought I would!
  • beater07beater07 America
    Problem is, there is a crowd of people who have no desire to organize and fight back because that involves .... PVP (*jumps out of his chair in fear*).

    They just want to do their own thing and never be affected negatively by anyone else. While this is a perfectly acceptable gameplay for a pve game, they aren't getting that here and hence the forum battles.

    Me personally, I have only one reason why I fight game-moderated protection of players and that is economy. I am 80% pve and 20% PVP and it completely disturbs me if pve players can just freely farm all day long flooding the market. Might as well start up www.buyloagold.com now because that's the direction we are moving.

    The argument is that "PVP players need sheep to kill but pve players don't need PVP players". I say this is a dumb statement and actually it is more correct to say PVP players don't need pve players ruining their competitive economy and turning the game into nothing but a gold farm.

    It would be great if there was a balance but alas, there isn't one that makes both happy, so PVP guys, expect a ruined economy and pve guys stop asking for 100% safety. That is the compromise.
  • beater07 said:

    Me personally, I have only one reason why I fight game-moderated protection of players and that is economy. I am 80% pve and 20% PVP and it completely disturbs me if pve players can just freely farm all day long flooding the market. Might as well start up www.buyloagold.com now because that's the direction we are moving.

    The argument is that "PVP players need sheep to kill but pve players don't need PVP players". I say this is a dumb statement and actually it is more correct to say PVP players don't need pve players ruining their competitive economy and turning the game into nothing but a gold farm.

    I'd like to be very clear on your position here. You are against the creation of wealth via pve players farming freely all day long (understandable), and so you believe this problem can be solved by concentrating all of that wealth in the hands of the PKers who kill pve players?

    It sounds like you are advocating for concentrated wealth, rather than to combat the generation of that wealth. Things that actually prevent flooding the market are non-droppable items, actually-challenging pve content, and the complete randomization of named spawns.

    Unless you are arguing that the constant threat of PKers will absolutely prevent pve players from engaging in pve content, at which point those players will likely stop logging in. I suppose this would combat the generation of wealth, but at the price of driving players away from the game?
  • YorlikYorlik www.arcanima.org
    If you need PvP to balance the economy the economy is broken in the first place.
  • SunSicSunSic above water
    as i made my way along the road between Yew and Britain, i was stopped by a highway robber. "Stand and deliver," he shouted, "your money or your life!". i gave him my gold, and he actually kept his word, and allowed me to continue on my way, a little lighter, but otherwise unharmed. this, in my opinion, was pvp done well. and, unfortunately, its all too rare. 99.999% of the time, in pvp, people kill me, for no other reason than "they can". no story behind it, no thought involved...

    however, frustrated by the constant murders going on at various gates, i started a guild, originally named the "Moongate Militia", whose sole purpose was to patrol, and guard the moongates. we evolved into a training academy for new and old soldiers alike, with a focus on GROUP TACTICS. it was the golden age of gaming for me, and for many of our members, and all of it came about as a result of the rampant pvp.

    so, while i am not a fan of "pvp for the sake of pvp", i agree with the op, in that there are opportunities to make something creative and fun from it :)

    "STAND YOUR GROUND!!!" -- old SWA motto
  • PVP gaming has come long way since those early days when you had to create it all yourself. The right people pulled it off on some servers. But not every shard was so lucky. Some focus for PVP players would go a long way to keeping the grieving down to a dull roar and keeping PVP from living in a constant state of boredom when they cant find someone to kill.
  • GaiusGaius 'Round the outside
    +1 SunSic. That's a great story! But as Franklin said, not every shard was so lucky.

    I played on a private UO RP server from 2001-2003, which was very good at first but was later ruined by a tiny handful of griefers. Those guys could resurrect, had unlootable storage, and were running a permanent KOS game. Craftsmen lose fights, even without being ambushed unexpectedly. So imagine an hour or more of grinding lost to a few seconds of PvP, repeatedly. The admins wouldn't act, and there was no effective in-game way for players to do anything about it- because resurrect! Hunt them down and five minutes later they're back at it. Ultimately most of the player base left.

    There will always be griefers, and they will always muddy the water with weak excuses for toxic behavior. You see the same arguments on this forum as were made back in the 2000's. Apparently, beater07 PK's because he's afraid of the free market. Sure man, you murder because you care, LOL! Afterall, no one wants the LoA equivalent of raised living standards!

    The main issue here is that there is currently no point in "fighting back"; griefers just fetch another bag of reagents and a horse and carry right on where they left off. Zero penalty.

    This can be solved permanently with an in-game permadeath system for repeat offenders, affecting only the PK character (operating outside of sanctioned guild warfare) on the player account. If PK'ers know starting out that they will get a countdown-to-permadeath flag if they behave in a certain way, then they don't get to complain about it later. And their victims have a very good reason to organize a posse and hunt the bandits down. Players still committed to the PK path would probably enjoy it more because there would be risk in it for them too. Perhaps even bragging rights, if they're actually any good and manage to stay alive.

    How to get flagged? Simple: hit a max number of murders (outside of CS's upcoming guild combat thing), reported through a system similar to the one from UO. Murders on the count decay with time, but once you're flagged there's no way to undo it - you'll only have X lives left. This suggestion is completely reasonable and moderate - only an irredeemably toxic, monstrously cruel, abusive and antisocial PK griefer would disagree.
  • +1 permadeath counter of 5 until game over and restart as a pure red. Combined with a bounty system and there will only be a healthy population of predators. Ofc they get a scoreboard with monthly and all time Ranking as incentive :)
  • beater07beater07 America
    Gaius,

    If you had reading comprehension skills you would have read that I said I'm 80% pve. Actually I'm not a PK unless someone is griefing me and I need to take them out. My heart is in crafting and I love a competitive market. So you can stop with the assumptions, thanks! Just because I support open PVP doesn't mean I support massive gank fest murder with no restrictions. Providing 100 percent safety is not the answer to the problem.

  • GaiusGaius 'Round the outside
    Beater07,

    Note my use of "apparently". I was addressing your 20% PvP, which is a lot, and the context gives no indication that it's defensive-only. In the same post, you advocated for violence as a means of regulating the economy, by taking wealth from PvE players. So based on the evidence it was fair to assume that you not only support that view, but are yourself at least a part-time PK'er. We should discontinue the mudslinging.

    If you're not a gank-fest supporter then we're on the same page; I'm 100% pro-PvP, 100% anti-gank, 0% PK'er, and principally a crafter. But I disagree with the idea that PvP is good for the economy, or is even necessary for it. And it can very easily get out of hand. Aneuren and Yorlik are both right.

    I don't want to see half-naked red mages on horseback robbing and killing with impunity. I want to be able to do something about it, and I want options that hurt the PK'ers in a way that balances out the harm they do. If craftsmen and PvE'ers lose hours of work (grindy, tedious work) to PK'ers, and one PK'er can loot many crafters in one day, then I want PK'er losses to be proportional when the rest of us finally decide to go after them. If they manage to dodge retribution because they have skill, so be it. But the potential should be there. That's simply fair.

    PK'ers are much better protected under the current system than blues are, simply from the perspective of exposure. You are far more likely to have valuables on you as a blue than as a red, you are in the open and vulnerable for longer while carrying goods, and your attention isn't constantly on PvP so you're unlikely to be ready when ambushed. And your build is probably not geared towards PvP. Again, within a few minutes a red can steal the profits from hours of someone else's work, and once he gets the loot back to his house (mere minutes) there's no way to recover it. He's got near-perfect protection, and almost no exposure. I would like to see extremely limited protection for everyone, including PK'ers.

    It comes down to intention: PK'ers choose red-style PvP and they aim to negatively impact other people (usually). With blues PvP is something that might happen, but you don't normally choose it. Why protect people who deliberately intend to harm others? Why should red enjoy the profits of PK'ing but be protected from any real risk, with all the cost borne by blue? Losing a horse and a bag of reagents after a failed three-minute encounter does not compare to losing 500 blightwood after an hour+ of grinding, along with all your gear. Or to almost finishing a dungeon only to have your entire party killed and looted, with no way to take meaningful revenge. It's unbalanced.

    There should be systems in place for blue to take very strong action against red. And if you're red you should be prepared to accept the risk, after all you chose that path.

    As far as I understand it, CS has said that player killing outside of the guild system will make for a difficult life. Good, I certainly hope so.
  • beater07beater07 America
    Whether you like it or not, player killing is just as valid of a gameplay style as our PvE playstyle is in a OPEN pvp-focused game that is specifically designed to allow it. And while some can sit and brainstorm all of the punishments that should be placed on a red player with a hidden agenda to just make them quit the game, they are missing the point that this isn't about driving them away, it is about accepting their playstyle just like we'd want CS to accept our PvE playstyle.

    You agree there should be compromise? Like do you really? A true compromise would be to accept that you will get killed every so often. If you cannot accept that, then you are not truly compromising, you are an elitist who feels your pve/rp playstyle should be isolated and untouched by anothers in a SHARED world. Don't forget that we are the PvE players joining a PVP server, not the other way around.

    The compromise a player killer should accept is knowing that their prey will have a good chance of escaping a good amount of the time, that they'll get guard whacked by their stupid mistakes, that they can't enter most of the towns, that some things in general are just more difficult to do as a red.

    *CS has yet to balance it just right and 8 months ago when I played and had absolutely 0% chance of escaping a red precasted on a horse while I was pveing on foot so I decided to just wait til steam and then make a final decision on whether or not they got it right or not and whether I'd play again.

    In my mind, a 70% chance of escaping the pk is about right. PKs will jaw drop at how high that sounds but when they go after people all day long the number of kills they will get is still a lot. It is ridiculous to expect to kill everyone they go after and if I were a PK (not a griefer one) I would hope I would not get free kills and actually have to have some strategy in the way I hunt. Getting a kill as a PK shouldn't be about a fair "fight" because their prey isn't prepared most of the time. It should be about a fair "chase", you get some, you lose some.



  • ZarwaddimZarwaddim USA
    edited April 18
    Sorry to necro your post. Ironically, I was looking for something about tasks/quests in-game, to see if that's planned, coming along, or if, sadly for me and many like me, they won't ever make it into the game. I know there is a contingent of people who abhor tasks/quests in a true sandbox. I, however, feel that it can fill a vital hole - time that I don't have to spend waiting around for player-content.

    What I mean by that is simply this: I don't have a lot of time to play. I have played many PvP games (UO, Darkfall, Albion come to mind). I remember vividly having 1-2 hours to play, and spending 1 hour and 45 minutes looking for that player-content. What I found was not necessarily enjoyable (nothing, just crickets, or just huge roaming groups I and my friends could not handle). I will agree that those odd times I did find something that, yes, a few were memorable. But I cannot hang my hat on the 4-5 times of 30 minutes to 1 hour of fun (let's say 5 hours total) in the last year or so, versus the hundreds of hours just roaming around, bank sitting, chatting, looking, etc. To me, that's just an inefficient use of my spare time.

    That is the reason I quit UO in December 1997 after it launched. I just couldn't justify the time spent getting ganked (and griefed) versus finding things to do. I rejoined in 2002 and had a better experience with PvP.

    And for me, having things to do, and even the DANGER involved, it fills my time. I give UO, Darkfall and Albion credit here. I could go out and do different things with that ever present danger in a very large world. Tasks, quests, gathering materials. I guess we can do that here (the gathering part), but the rest seems sparse. I hope they create things to do. This is not to say I want to be on rails, I do not. I want things to do that the developers have created for us to do while we roam a dangerous world. Sort of like what UO has now - where you can run around and do things and have that ever present danger if you go into the PvP facet.

    But I digress.

    Back to your points. I think in theory you make a very sound case for PvP. I don't dispute any of that. I just disagree that there should be no CONSEQUENCE (which your post totally places on the shoulders of other players - this is too tribal, there needs to be some governing authority, and it's the NPC's in the game controlled by the developers).

    To me, that is where games shine. Yes, I could rely on guilds, theoretically. Or friends, theoretically. But there were too many times when I started UO in 1997 that it just got unbearable. This wasn't me running around and being killed by 100 different people in a 1-2 hour session - that I can respect. This was me running around and being killed 100 times by the same 1-2-3 people.

    If there is consequence to random killing, then what you are saying wouldn't need to be said - it would just be an edict, a code. And lets be honest, there are many people that act as if PvP games are Westworld where they can get off on violent delights and just become murder hobo's or whatever. Are there are honorable people? Heck yeah. But I think it's that bunch of people that seem to just be acting out their real life frustrations or whatever, and calling it skill or just plain being douchebags. Without consequence, these people seem to coagulate and distort history and make it seem like it's alright. It's not. And saying "get gud" or "get guild" or "get friends", that's not what one should HAVE to do (again, it's an option, or one way of playing - it should not be the ONLY way to play).

    If we are playing in a sandbox, and the sandbox reasonably imitates a life online, then consequences should abound. While there have been a few mass murderers in real life, they aren't still running around mass murdering - if you know what I mean.

    Sorry, again, for the necro. This is just my humble and reasoned opinion.
  • edited April 18
    @Zarwaddim , I agree that having some sort of content that is not completely dependent on player interactions, but also not totally guided, could provide the game with an interesting underlayer. However, the development team is quite small and they probably won't have time nor resources to focus on that until the game is released on Steam.

    As for your comments on player-killing, while I agree that consequences should exist, I do not think they should abound. There must be a balance, and I think the current consequences to player-killing are already substantial. Some tweaking might be necessary, though. It is hard to tell at this stage of development.
  • Would not mind seeing a virtue system again. Compassion, Honor, etc. probably could fill the task/quest role nicely.

    Players quickly figure out how to work around consequences. I have yet to see a system that did anything more than keep honest people honest. It is better to put tools in the players hands to police themselves.

    Perhaps even some kind of reward system for playing a the "good" guy. As it stands you are rewarded for killing a player by getting all their loot. No reward exists for guarding other players or hunting reds. Nor is there a reward for playing nice. So how do you expect players to act in a game like this? Game telling you "Murder everyone you meet. They have phat loot." Then its telling you, "Nice guys finish last and get nothing, you loser." Expecting everyone to play honorably in game like this is just as insane as waving a meaty bone in front of a hungry dog and expecting him not to grab it. Unless you change this dynamic in game, the problem will persist. Consequences or no.
  • edited April 18
    while I'm not going to pretend to be against PVP in anyway shape or form as i have played PVP chars in all their various forms. Having said that i have yet to delve into the world of PVP in LOA so before you start going on about me being a griefer I'm not.Now the PK's that run around killing miners and crafters all day are the lowest form of PVP in my opinion.

    I can tell from they way most of you are posting that you haven't spent any serious amount of time as a PK player. So i guess ill play the Devils advocate. Some of your points are correct, it takes seconds to reduce your hours of resource gather to dust. Once you have it there isn't a whole lot you can do with it, its not like a red can walk into town and sell their ill-gotten loot. Ya ya you can start transferring between chars from a red to a blue toon, but isn't this supposed to be instant profit? now there is other options if your in a guild hopefully you have access to some crafters that are willing to help you out (what self respecting crafter is going to buy resources from a red after all). the same goes for replacing gear. now if your finding combat ready miners then gear isn't as much of an issue but most miners like to mine naked to save room and getting ganked less likely because its less profitable to the PK. honestly most of the time its not worth the hassle to keep the resource and its down right boring killing a naked miner (my opinion).

    As for the Carebears in the dungeons. You are dungeon delving, you are putting your self in harms way to try and make a profit. hate to break it to you but PVP players are part of the danger of being in a dungeon. You and your friends are fully equipped for a fight so really it comes down to skill and numbers. you'll find that normally these PVPers are better equipped due to the fact that they know they are in for a fight. So which ever side wins will normally come away with good loot.

    There are some other considerations i think you need to make when it comes to Red player in a game like this. For one thing, if you think being a crafter puts a target on your back try playing a red for a day. doesn't matter where you go, if your out numbered your in for a fight, oh and there's no safe haven for you. either your fast enough to get away or your tough enough to fight them off. If a Random blue is walking by equipped for battle and sees a red running for his life i'd give even odds that the red has one more guy after him.

    Between the fact that your basically limited to the wilds, everyone is would rather see you dead and in the case of most of the posters playing a different game. Being a PK isn't all sunshine and lolly pops, i get that its a choice made but this is a sand box game where your given the choice to be what ever you want to be, be it a crafter and dungeon delver or a PK. all paths have their pros and cons.

    Its that variety and freedom that makes a game like this great. If you don't like something DO something about it(and i don't mean cry to the devs to have it changed)

    That's my 2 cents now all the haters can hate.

    Edit: Posted before i was finished by mistake.

  • There are good and bad players, but I think there is good in everyone.

    I've been around both, and most of the time players choose not to kill me because they like me and think I'm cool. I wouldn't even mind if they wanted to KOS me, in fact I sometimes ask them to if they want.

    Helping others is what I enjoy doing, and I also like ganking others if I feel they deserve it. It's like, I just get a bad vibe from someone and I think that's it, and I wait for the perfect time to strike.

    It's excellent that we are allowed to do this. Imagine if in real life we could res each other, we would probably kill each other all the time, and somebody else would come res them, and it would/may reform that person or not, but then someone else would just come and kill them again...

    Eventually you might get some really talented evil person, but then that's where more than one person is required and when it's a group of really horrible players that's when there is a problem - but even so, I don't see it as a problem. Everybody needs to get their fun out of the game, otherwise there's just no point playing.

    No limitations please.
  • The best thing is stay in the Trammel land if you don't like to be pked.
  • SanyaSanya Inside your computer Administrator
    I just wanted to poke in my beak to say I'm enjoying the conversation. I can't comment on specifics since we're still working on some stuff -- and for me to comment with my personal opinions will unfairly steer the conversation, which is not what this game or this company is supposed to be about.

    But there are many excellent points being made on multiple sides of a complex issue that hasn't truly been solved by anyone yet, and it's a delight seeing this very old conversation NOT devolving into a name calling bitchfest.



  • edited April 22
    I'll throw my opinion in the ring. Why not just extend karma to the whole account (maybe have account name visible too) rather than just one character? Just make sure the lawless red towns allow for a complete experience. At the same time make sure it takes a few kills to take you from high karma to red (not counting time spent as a murderer, which should be a long timer. Maybe a whole day or more). That way you have two choices, either embrace the red lifestyle, or limit your PKing to opportunistic once in a blue moon, too good to pass up scenarios... and you seriously weigh the consequences before doing so. "Can I afford to do this karma wise? I just killed nooblar415 last for being an irritating spammer..."

    If everyone has a PK alt they can try to get loot on and then give to their main character with no consequences, of course you're going to get a lot of griefers. Even if the consequences are nasty, they just skill the character up, pass some gear to it from their main, and when they get tired of the irritation of being red, they hop off their murder character. At that point there are basically no consequences.

    Where am I coming from? most of my time playing UO was spent on a small server and it ended up being just that. Everyone knew everyone. There was only maybe 200 players. If you PKd someone, they knew who you were or could ask and everyone knew you did it. The "Karma" was account wide. It made things much more realistic and it made the game world feel much more real.... and yes there was a good bit of PKing. PK guilds, opportunistic PKing, dedicated PKers (who formed their own community), and guild wars (sometimes resulting from the opportunistic PKing). There just weren't many griefers because its gets boring playing by yourself when everyone hates you and kills all of your characters on sight. Obviously that wouldn't work on a larger server, but account wide karma would be an approximation.
  • I think that's an interesting idea, mainly because it sort of defeats the purpose of having red characters when you can just log in your blue alt to go into town for you and get/do whatever. That just doesn't seem right to me. Not sure account wide karma is the answer but it would be better than what we have in my opinion once red players can sustain themselves outside of town.
  • SachaSacha [Reino de Aldor]
    +1
  • beater07beater07 America
    I'll just buy two accounts and have a red account and a blue account.
  • beater07 said:

    I'll just buy two accounts and have a red account and a blue account.

    That just goes to show that the simplest "solutions" are always the ones which are the easiest to cheat/circumvent.
  • SachaSacha [Reino de Aldor]
    well, if that means more money to develop the game, it will be most welcome
  • edited April 25
    beater07 said:

    I'll just buy two accounts and have a red account and a blue account.

    I'm ok with that lol, though it could be solved by making it an in game karma crime to trade with reds or pick up stolen property.
    Sacha said:

    well, if that means more money to develop the game, it will be most welcome

    yep, exactly.

  • DominusDominus I always start my day with a Special K, for breakfast.
    Once news gets out, people would circumvent it by buying zero accounts too. That's the bigger danger considering the target audience.

    There's are other ways around this that I think would be much fairer.

    Here's my take on what would make a good system that's fun for both sides, depending on where you set x_values at. (I know some of us are more brutal than others)

    --------
    Whenever you loot someone that loot goes into a special bag that cannot be moved, or accessed for x_minutes.
    You're flagged as a criminal, attackable by anyone.
    The victim is alerted! (they can chose to ignore crime in case of friends looting)
    Criminal's location is shown continually to the victim for x_minutes (same as special bag timer).

    If the looter survives the timer they gets to keep everything and stops being a criminal for that particular crime.
    If the looter gets caught and killed by "any" other player, all special bags still on a x_minutes timers go back to their victims.

    The timer for x_minutes only ticks down in unguarded areas with no safe spots (housing) available, like dungeons.
    Logging out and back in add 10 mins to the timer. Victim is alerted whenever you login.
    ----

    After getting caught, we can optionally apply whatever penalty you wanna add on top, x_fines, mining rocks for x_quota, x_time humiliation chained in town where anyone can make your character say whatever, and make you dance like a fool. Plenty of creative options. But since it's full loot and you're probably gonna take all the criminal's stuff too, maybe getting caught is punishment enough.

    (also optional, killing a player once and not looting does not trigger the x_minutes timer but makes you temporarily attackable, killing the same player multiple times in a short timeframe triggers the timer regardless of weather the criminal loots or not, that would keep casual non-griefing, no looting attacks available to all, and cut down on res-killing griefers)
    --------

    Under this system criminals get to commit as much crimes as they can run from, they can also group up to trick & ensnare incoming hunters. Or they can turn on each other out of spite.

    And victims can get revenge personally, or organise groups to hunt down criminals, with the possibility of a genuinely satisfying outcome..

    More importantly multi accounts and alt characters won't be able to get around any of this. And it's easily tweaked for for stealing too.
  • @Dominus - some interesting ideas there though I am not sure how much I would like it in practice, perhaps with some tweaks!

    The logging out issue right after they loot could be really abused depending on how it's done.
  • I haven't been ganked yet. I can't wait! It'll bring back old memories of always trying to fit hiding into every character.
  • DominusDominus I always start my day with a Special K, for breakfast.
    @Veronica yup, definitely tweaks needed, the only real novel idea in there is looting goes to a temporary special bag that can be recovered later.

    Everything else is just my interpretation of what might be fun to play as both a criminal and honest citizen.
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