Balancing Full PvP/Loot with Limiting Griefing

So, I made a response to another thread (on another topic), but my response got me thinking. Here is what I posted:

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Anyway, this type of griefing behavior (frankly, on both sides of the fence) is what has me concerned about this game. Any time you give gamers the opportunity to act like assholes, they will.

This is the inherent issue with "full pvp", full loot, "sandbox" games. All it takes is a couple people and they can completely ruin the gameplay of someone. I would prefer that my game time isn't that susceptible to the impact of assholes.

IMO, there is a reason you don't see many games (any really) that operate on full pvp, full loot. As soon as you start designing with intent to limit the ability of players to be assholes, you quickly realize that you can't have full pvp, full loot. The gaming community simply doesn't have the maturity for it.

The "carebears" will leave first, quickly realizing that while there is "PvE", they aren't able to enjoy it because of the "griefers". The people who enjoy PvP, but only in a limited setting will leave for the same reasons, it will just take longer. The "hardcore" PvPers, who truly enjoy "all-pvp, all-the-time", will quickly realize there aren't that many people to fight, since the "griefers/gankers" will only run and hide until they can find another target of opportunity, and the casual PvPers left, so they will leave.

Finally, all you are left with are the griefers and the occasional new/returning player, who are quickly driven away by the griefers as they gang-rape the fresh body.

So, long story short...I R concerned. ;)

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I am curious as to the community's thoughts on the matter. How do you balance having a game with full pvp/full loot, yet still have enough checks in place to limit assholes/griefing behavior? Is it possible to do both? Is it a sliding scale?

As current testing has shown, what they have in place obviously isn't working. Can they change it? SHOULD they change it?

Should it only be a game for "big boys" who know how to deal with the "bottom feeders"? If it is that kind of game, will it attract enough people to be self-sustaining?

I know we are all excited to see what LoA can do, and where it is going. However, is it being designed to ultimately fail because people can't be trusted not to ruin the experience of others?

Anyway...just some thoughts, curious as to yours.
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Comments

  • YorlikYorlik www.arcanima.org
    Its a community thing.
    You can't solve that with technology alone.
    Or you do it with zones, like EVE Online, but the current zones and security concept need fixing.
  • lostpup0311lostpup0311 hartertjames@yahoo.com
    you both are complicating a simple fix, this is alpha stage remember dudes and dudettes, PVE=PVP doesnt make you a care bear, i like both im 200 lbs of muscle irl , i like to wreck people and have a dialog with people who are just playing the game and trying to lv up and get best stuff if that is the case here, you have alot to learn alot of trammel guilds wrecked felluca guilds all about skill not geography
  • @lostpup0311

    I have no idea what your IRL weight has to do with the topic, but ok... Not sure if this is a language barrier, but I had a hard time understanding your point with the giant run-on sentence.

    This isn't about PvE vs. PvP. It is about the impact of "griefers" on the gameplay of others. It is about that, if given an opportunity to be an assholes, there will be gamers who will use that to the greatest extent possible, simply for the "fun" of ruining someone's day.

    The questions is about how do you balance the "viability" of a full pvp, full loot game, with restrictions designed to limit the ability of people to act like assholes.
  • lostpup0311lostpup0311 hartertjames@yahoo.com
    edited June 13
    sprechen sie duetsch? parle vous francais?, I agree as i aforementioned, but really a free world no grieving? ever heard of street smarts? . dude just be smart dont wear your best gear unless your 3-4 deep
    if you get killed head to bank gear up again and hit it again. guards zones need to be absolutely fixed in green zone no reds no monsters, if you venture out of those areas on you, no thoes where languages i can speak, yes i was bragging little im a man arent we all a cocky? so you need grammar to get the chicks thats great, chikcs hate a dude that cant hold a convo, anyways finni me and you pals now i like you :) still love the care bear count down :)
  • lostpup0311lostpup0311 hartertjames@yahoo.com
    and i loved the care bears
  • Not sure what's up with the language lesson at the beginning. I was simply pointing out your grammar was making it difficult to understand your points.

    So, you must subscribe to the thought that "This is a 'big boy's game', and you just need to man up and deal with the griefers"?

    That's fine, I am sure there are other's who feel the same way. The question in regards to that was - do you think there will be enough people who enjoy that kind of gameplay?
  • lostpup0311lostpup0311 hartertjames@yahoo.com
    sec editing
  • lostpup0311lostpup0311 hartertjames@yahoo.com
    edited June 13
    absolutely yes, didnt you read that article 6 months ago that mmos are dead, ptw, etc, Honestly fin, if the kitchen is to hot get out of the fire, still love you bro and im with you if youd tell me who you are id be more then glad to fight by your side, has anyone stop to notice that the dt, and dev haven't even sold a single thing???, just pledges, no weapons no skill no advanced toons wich uo did resort too, if anything you should be glad that if you pay the piper youll get in return here very rare and ive seen nothing but complaining
  • edited June 13
    It's like you're trying to communicate...

    Take care.
  • lostpup0311lostpup0311 hartertjames@yahoo.com
    edited June 13
    its like your trying to give me a hug ima get wait and see :) brother your going to like me :) im pretty cool irl and on computer. just like this game is all if i get to hot headed tell me to stfu ok
  • lostpup0311lostpup0311 hartertjames@yahoo.com
    snuggle wumps
  • lostpup0311lostpup0311 hartertjames@yahoo.com
    eh editing like zak said
  • This is something I have a lot of time dealing with. Being on the receiving end and dishing out of this "griefing" aspect of UO.

    It all comes down to preparation and mindset. To be honest when I read your post I kinda felt like you were just pked, ressed and got pked again a few minutes later. And instantly went to the forums.

    You didn't explain how you were being griefed, but for now I'm going to say my theory of you dying is correct. If someone is going out of their way to make your life miserable take a step back and consider a few things...

    1. Is it something you can prevent by just doing something else while the pk crew are dishing out pain? (I.e. raising a skill on an alternate character)

    2. Are you in a high traffic area and what type loot are you carrying, hopefully everyone will be conscious not to carry a ton of valuables and gold.

    3. Do you have a plan when shit goes down? Like how you are going to react when someone runs up and starts attacking you. What direction will you go? Do you have heal and cure potions with you for extra survivalbility?

    4. Can you make friends to play with as a group? There are strength in numbers.

    5. And lastly don't stress, if you are getting griefed it will only continue and become worse if the person know its getting to you. Take a play from my book, make grab bags with bandaids, reagents, and any gear you need to quickly return to playing. If and when death occurs you don't have to spend thirty minutes thinking about it. Just open your bank or home and restock with a grab bag and continue playing.

    There will be guarded zones to stay safe in. And people who grief will most likely have murderer status before you know it. A group of mediocre skilled players can easily set up a trap to kill a single person considering the health cap here. There are from what I can tell, no magic items yet like heal/lightning wands and invis or teleport gear + purple potions. All of these items require a higher skill cap to use them efficiently but significantly boost survivability. Although it also increases difficulty for a non PvP player to survive if they are just running around right clicking npcs and pretending to be prince Arthur the knight of aria and then doomsday swings in ready to ground pound you to death.

    The rule here is don't carry more than your willing to lose. You don't even have to die from another player to use this logic mobs can be tough at higher end spawns.

    Although I have a lot more I would say ill probably wrap it up with this. Be prepared to deal with loss, let's not turn LOA into a remake of pub16 or a UO World of Warcraft.

    However I still want a player indicator on my map. It will be cheaper for me if they just switched it on rather than me paying someone for a third party UOAM. :expressionless:

    Support my map thread. Make the world easy to navigate again!
    https://www.legendsofaria.com/forums/discussion/4244/interactive-map-i-need-one/p2?
  • SachaSacha [Reino de Aldor]
    Too many rules, plans, preparation, restocking and things to do, just to take care of two silly idiots.
    I only got a few hours a week to play, so I can't waste a minute with such stupid griefers.
    I just won't play on any server where that kind of actitude is not answered with a cd-key ban.
  • lostpup0311lostpup0311 hartertjames@yahoo.com
    sacha.. i was trying to help, i wont post a thing from now on ok :) im not that drunk i made some good points
  • lostpup0311lostpup0311 hartertjames@yahoo.com
    could have called me a dumb ass though :p
  • SachaSacha [Reino de Aldor]
    i wasn't refering to you, of course you made some good points.
    I was talking about the two griefers in Yorlik's video.
  • @Finnigast @Sacha, this game isn't for everyone...if you take the time to complain on forums and not fix the problem itself (your play style) after @SneakyT took the time to educate you, then it's safe to say that risk/reward gameplay obviously doesn't cater to your needs. This being said, let's not try to motion any cupcake patches the game is fine as it is, kThanks.

    P.s. I know it hasn't been addressed yet but I motion full house looting be an option.
  • SachaSacha [Reino de Aldor]
    Maybe you take many things for granted.
    My server will feature permadeath and losing skill points on death, so please don't pretend this UO-like system is the only risk/reward gameplay that there is.
    We already had enough UO2 fans telling us anything different from what they had pre-trammel is wrong (a problem with our play style, as you said).
  • Starfire3DStarfire3D Auckland, New Zealand
    If you don't like PVP and greifers you can come to my server which will be totally PVE with all the PVP taken out wherever I can find it and re-script it. Will be a haven for the 'carebears' as people like to call people who want to play and explore and not being bothered with someone trying to show their 'uberness' and how big their genitals are. That is if I can get it so I can even read the fonts and able to change them.
  • lostpup0311lostpup0311 hartertjames@yahoo.com
    awesome starfire im down :)
  • edited June 14
    Ok, maybe I should clarify here. I am not saying "griefing" is a good or bad thing, I am simply pointing out that it is heavily prevalent in games that are structured like this.

    My question revolved around whether having an environment that promotes that type of behavior will be appealing enough to attract enough people to be successful as a game.

    I understand how to "deal" with it, I understand that "aggressive pvp" is what this game is designed around. I also understand that that type of "eat or be eaten", constantly having to plan any time you want to go do basically anything, not safe to solo, be prepared to lose everything gameplay will drive a lot of people away.

    How many games that are like that are currently active on the market? Pretty sure the answer is "one" - and that is EVE, which is different from this game on so many levels it can hardly be compared. There is a reason those games don't exist, and isn't because everyone is clamoring for them. Not that they are bad games, but people just don't like the potential to have their 1-2 hours of gameplay either taken up by "prep work" and finding safety in numbers, or being ruing and wasted by griefers. It isn't fun.

    I pledged, I understand what the game is trying to do. I applaud them for what they are trying to do. I have no issues with it. It isn't the systems that are flawed, it is the people using them.

    What I am asking is whether the ability of people to be assholes, and negatively impact the gameplay of anyone on a whim, is going to drive too many people away.

    All of you that are pointing fingers and saying "you just need to learn to deal with it" are missing the point - it isn't personal, and you don't need to try to justify that behavior to me. You will, however, potentially be in a situation where you will need to justify that behavior to others.

    As an example:

    - New player starts exploring, doesn't know anything, goes to graveyard and starts killing things...yay, fun!

    - "Griefers" decide to go harrass new players at said graveyard. They go in naked, because they know the guards will kill them, but they can spare the few mats it takes to launch a rockbomb that will one-shot said newbie.

    - New player obviously dies. He is new, didn't know about the "cutthroat" nature of the game, and hadn't put his starter stuff in the bank.

    - New players experience is now complete. He died, he has nothing, game over.

    You think he is going to come back?

    Games like EVE get around this by having a safety net in your starter ships, insurance, etc. Their "High-Sec" space is really High-Sec. They have PvE content to still help you get along while you learn the game. Currently, LoA has no safety net. That may be coming, but frankly, I don't know how they would implement it in a realistic manner.

    Bottom line is that CURRENTLY, assholes can have too much of an impact. It isn't the game system's fault, not really, though people will constantly cry "I am simply pointing out a bug" or "I am playing within the system". However, we all know that, "legal" or not, it is the assholes that end up making the lasting impression.

    Will the game be able to survive that impression?

    EDIT:

    For reference, I haven't actively played since before the relaunch. I hop on every now and then to see the changes, then log off. I currently don't see the value in grinding anything out atm. So, no, I wasn't just "griefed", no one "touched me in a bad place", I am not "salty". Get over yourselves. I am simply bringing up a legitimate concern, that has shown itself to be relevant in the obvious lack of games like this out on the market.
  • Sounds to me like there are plenty of safe games out there already. Players who buy games now probably also research what they are buying before hand. LOA doesn't hide the full loot on death aspect when advertising.

    I'm not going to argue that you can't go to a graveyard and be killed. But I will say the current new player zone is guard protected (sewers). You can GM all of your fighting and healing skills down there in a couple of hours. Including your 225 points for strength, int, or stam. I know because I did it.

    Your point seems to hing on Assholes killing the growth of the sever through a single experience. As I already wrote there is a perfectly safe way for a new player to be fully capable of having the ability, at the very minimum, to farm hobgoblins as soon as they leave town.

    The hardest part for new players will probably be having a map with no indicator for their character positioning. Since every game has something like that. And here we do not

    If you don't have time to deal a couple of Assholes every now and then or you have anxiety issues talk to yorlik. He is going to be running a server with a list of bannable offenses. You'll fit right in.

  • Starfire3DStarfire3D Auckland, New Zealand
    The only reason I am still in shards/LoA whatever you want to call it, is I can totally change the game to my (and my followings) liking. If this was another "You play like we want you to and nothing you can do about it game". I would not have spent US$200 (although it looks like now I should have stayed at US$75)
  • ZagZag
    edited June 14
    I still don't understand how people are being griefed in the guard protected areas. You should be able to just yell "guards", and the criminal player would be gone. The protected region is huge, by the way! If I am not mistaken even the cemetery is in a guard protected area, isn't it? Maybe the new player experience should educate people a little better about how protected zones work and what are their options when facing a criminal in these zones. I always liked the UO new player experience in which all new-account-players started in a separate island where they could experience all these situations in a controlled setting before hitting the real world.

    The problem in my opinion is when you allow criminal players to easily resurrect inside the town. I mentioned in another thread that this should be fixed in the following manner: inside towns there should be an NPC healer who refuses to resurrect criminals; resurrecting shrines - which bring anyone back to life - should be relatively far from the towns in order to make it a little harder for reds to stay around after being killed by the town guards.

    As for new players who are still not used to the nature of the game, they can try venturing little by little into the unprotected zones by hanging around the semi-protected zones where there are guard towers they can run back to.
  • @Zag

    You are correct in that many of my "concerns" would probably be address by adding better "safety nets" for newer players. As it stands now, even in the "safe zones" with guards/lightning bolt of death, "griefers" who are willing to suicide can kill newbies. That may very well change, so it could be too soon to tell.

    @Battlerattle

    I am not saying that they need to turn LoA into a "carebear game". I am pointing out that, at the moment, there is too much wiggleroom in the starting experience. The "safe" zones where you start are still able to be "trolled", there is little to no "safety net" for new players, and the potential impact of "griefers" on a brand new player is too high.

    Even EVE, the ultimate in "kill or be killed, lose all your shit", has safety nets built in to ease new players into the cutthroat world.

    Again, not trying to turn the game into something it isn't, I am saying it may be worth considering the starting experience a bit more closely.
  • Finnigast said:

    So, I made a response to another thread (on another topic), but my response got me thinking. Here is what I posted:

    --------------

    Anyway, this type of griefing behavior (frankly, on both sides of the fence) is what has me concerned about this game. Any time you give gamers the opportunity to act like assholes, they will.

    This is the inherent issue with "full pvp", full loot, "sandbox" games. All it takes is a couple people and they can completely ruin the gameplay of someone. I would prefer that my game time isn't that susceptible to the impact of assholes.

    IMO, there is a reason you don't see many games (any really) that operate on full pvp, full loot. As soon as you start designing with intent to limit the ability of players to be assholes, you quickly realize that you can't have full pvp, full loot. The gaming community simply doesn't have the maturity for it.

    The "carebears" will leave first, quickly realizing that while there is "PvE", they aren't able to enjoy it because of the "griefers". The people who enjoy PvP, but only in a limited setting will leave for the same reasons, it will just take longer. The "hardcore" PvPers, who truly enjoy "all-pvp, all-the-time", will quickly realize there aren't that many people to fight, since the "griefers/gankers" will only run and hide until they can find another target of opportunity, and the casual PvPers left, so they will leave.

    Finally, all you are left with are the griefers and the occasional new/returning player, who are quickly driven away by the griefers as they gang-rape the fresh body.

    So, long story short...I R concerned. ;)

    -------------

    I am curious as to the community's thoughts on the matter. How do you balance having a game with full pvp/full loot, yet still have enough checks in place to limit assholes/griefing behavior? Is it possible to do both? Is it a sliding scale?

    As current testing has shown, what they have in place obviously isn't working. Can they change it? SHOULD they change it?

    Should it only be a game for "big boys" who know how to deal with the "bottom feeders"? If it is that kind of game, will it attract enough people to be self-sustaining?

    I know we are all excited to see what LoA can do, and where it is going. However, is it being designed to ultimately fail because people can't be trusted not to ruin the experience of others?

    Anyway...just some thoughts, curious as to yours.

    This is the reason I bought the game, because I want full loot / full pvp EVERYWHERE. I think people who buy the game also want this, if they don't they shouldn't buy... like some people said above, there are plenty of carebear games out there. I'd give anything to play a full loot MOBA as well, full risk = full rewards = endless possibilities.
  • edited June 15
    I proposed a solution in another thread where the security decreases the further you travel from civilization. In town security can be 100 %, then walk into the nearby forest the security is 90 %, walk further security decreases to 80 % etc.

    I think those guards jumping out of portals is pretty kitsch. I would prefer they just materialize (walk out) of the shadows. The guards shouldn't always be omnipotent. Some times the player could kill the guard, sometimes the guard kills the player. Spawning guard strength could be somewhat random. A player killer who attacks a crafter in a medium security zone should not know exactly how strong the guard or guards are.

    With this solution each player can be in charge of the risk/reward ratio of their own playstyle with some unpredictability.
  • @Keldar

    I think something along those lines is what they are working towards. The problem I am referencing specifically is the one regarding the "100%" safe zone. Currently, that doesn't actually exist. There is no where (that I am aware of) that is currently 100% safe - everywhere is vulnerable to "suicide bombers".

    Again, that may very well change, but it points to the issue of new player experience.

    For some reason, people seem to be incapable of understanding that I am all for the "hard-core" PvP experience. I am only concerned about the very initial experience of new players, and the lack of any type of safety net that exists.

    Most responses seem to be missing that point. I don't know if there are simply incapable of putting themselves in the shoes of an actual new player (one that didn't participate in testing, and thus, doesn't know ANYTHING), or are to close-minded to examine constructive criticism with a response greater than "There are plenty of care-bear games that way".

    No one is trying to take your precious, fucking, pvp... I am merely trying to look at it from the aspect of the brand new player.
  • Finnigast said:

    @Keldar

    I think something along those lines is what they are working towards. The problem I am referencing specifically is the one regarding the "100%" safe zone. Currently, that doesn't actually exist. There is no where (that I am aware of) that is currently 100% safe - everywhere is vulnerable to "suicide bombers".

    Again, that may very well change, but it points to the issue of new player experience.

    For some reason, people seem to be incapable of understanding that I am all for the "hard-core" PvP experience. I am only concerned about the very initial experience of new players, and the lack of any type of safety net that exists.

    Most responses seem to be missing that point. I don't know if there are simply incapable of putting themselves in the shoes of an actual new player (one that didn't participate in testing, and thus, doesn't know ANYTHING), or are to close-minded to examine constructive criticism with a response greater than "There are plenty of care-bear games that way".

    No one is trying to take your precious, fucking, pvp... I am merely trying to look at it from the aspect of the brand new player.

    I see what you mean. New player experience of course is very important. Maybe there should be a combat stance you can switch to evasive (100% defense/ 0% attack) and then you can survive an encounter where the player killer is much more experienced.

    I also believe that dying should lead to skill loss but not on new players who don't have much skill. Perhaps this would prevent someone behaving like a kamikaze pilot. I hope I'm on point.
This discussion has been closed.